I took a recent trip to the UK to visit my parents, and while I was over there I decided to pickup one of Ignition's 'D-CBS Eliminator Kits'. I went this route because I wanted longer lines to comfortably accomodate taller bars, and I figured I'd kill two birds with one stone (the front lines in this kit are +1). The function of the LBS doesn't offend me terribly, but I don't like overly complex systems when a simple one will suffice (or work better).

Seb is a top bloke, and was very very helpful and pleasant to deal with. The kit is extremely comprehensive; including absolutely everything you will need (replacement banjo bolts all 'round, more copper washers than you can possibly need, replacement stainless hardware, etc.) The instructions could be a little better, and in fact I believe they will come with photographs in future. Seb will email you photos upon request, to aid with the installation. Once I figured out that every part of the existing brake system was to be removed (except for calipers and master cylinders), then the installation was much clearer to me. Included are anodized aluminum brackets that replace the 'slave' cylinder that resides on the left-hand caliper. You get to choose the color of your lines, and the color of these brackets. I went black everywhere, of course.

The most time-consuming part of the installation is the removal of all bodywork, the front wheel, and tank, and then the removal of the existing brake components. Re-installation of the new stuff is a breeze. I pulled off some 14 lines, plus other miscellaneous components (cylinders, brake proportioner, etc). In place, you install 4 main brake lines (2 front, 2 rear) plus the 2 short link lines on each caliper, plus the brackets to replace the torque-biased slave cylinder on the left caliper.

Improvement in braking is much more subtle that I would have expected, but I've only put 40 miles on the bike since performing the de-link so I'll reserve final judgement 'til later. The front certainly feels more progressive and obviously is now accompanied by more fork dive. One thing I never liked about the linked rears was the abrupt transition when you got past a certain amount of pedal travel. Obviously that's now gone, and it is much easier to lockup the rear end. :grin:

Seb's website is here: http://www.321ignition.co.uk

Heres a pic of the caliper setup, and of all the junk that came off the bike.




Bleeding the system was I'm sure much easier than the OEM setup, but it still took forever. I was beginning to think there was a problem with my installation, but after 30 minutes of pumping the brake lever and after having circulated a full quart of dot4 through the system, I finally got some lever resistance!

I also fitted a Galfer +2 clutch line at the same time. Seeing the amount of slack in the line after installation, it's pretty obvious now that a +1 would probably suffice for the VFR bars (which I shall be ordering very shortly).

Cheers.
-Pace

WHEN YOU HIT THE FRONT BRAKES NOW, DO ALL 6 PISTONS WORK????
HOW MUCH WAS THE KIT IN U.S. DOLLARS????

Don, this is the same kit I have, it's gonna run you around $360-$370, I think.

Pace, how does your front lever feel? I rode mine for around 1500 miles with the stock master, but couldn't get used to the extra travel, so ended up going with a 5/8 bore master cylinder, which improved things greatly.

I had a chance recently to ride an XX that was still linked, and it served to remind me that I made the right choice de-linking.

Yes... I have all 6-pots being applied with the front lever - hence that short link hose in the first photo.

I haven't received my credit card statement yet, but the cost was 245GBP I think, plus 10GBP for overnight shipping within the UK. You'd obviously pay a little more for shipping to the USA. With the relatively weak dollar right now, I expect this to appear on my CC statement as around $400 or so. This was the cheaper of the kits he offers which I think he calls EVO-2. The newer one (EVO-3?) costs about $50 more and I think replaces those short link hose sections with a machined piece instead. He told me performance would be identical, but the flexible hoses in the earlier kit are easier to install so I decided to save myself the $50.

Redbird: My hands are fairly big for a small guy, and while I notice the extra lever travel I don't perceive it as a major problem at the moment. Then again, I haven't done many miles so it may begin to bother me later. For future reference, where did you pickup your 5/8 master cylinder and how much did it set you back?

-Pace

The 5/8" front master is a foriegn market part (non-U.S.), a couple of members here helped me source one from Japan, sorry but I've lost track of the part#. I think Seb sells 'em for around $160 USD, if I remember correctly, and he can probably help with a part# if you can source it elsewhere.

I did! I need to figure out how to get a refund though..

Here's a pic of the left caliper showing the supplied bracketry.



Thanks for the info, Redbird.

-Pace

Pace,
I recently installed Seb's EVO-3 de-linking kit with the machined caliper pieces and I also replaced the front master cylinder with one direct from Japan. When I get home I'll send you the part numbers for the that and the new lever. The guy you'll deal with is Toru, and he is a top notch guy. I recommend upgrading to the larger bore, and it only cost around $156 for master, lever, and shipping. Super fast turn around time too.

Seb is a really helpful guy to deal with and the kit is really first class and comprehensive, but did you notice that the front lines had almost too much slack? Did you have any problems properly routing the lines? Maybe I'm just a little too anal. I think I'll order the VFR bars just to accomodate the excess.

Seb mentioned to me that the Nissin Blackbird front calipers had a casting fault in the threads for the bleeder screw. Did you have a problem with the screws pissing a little brake fluid?


-Colin

Yeah, during bleeding there was almost as much fluid pissing past the threads as was coming through the nipple. Kinda annoying. The front lines do have some slack for sure, but Seb told me they were +1 which is a good thing as I'll be throwing on a new set of bars soon.

Thanks for the master cylinder info btw. ;)

-Pace

Colin, do you have any pics of the machined caliper pieces? This wasn't available when I de-linked, and I'm considering upgrading from those little hoses



Yes, I did. I had to tighten them way more than you should have to to get them to stop weeping fluid. 6000 mile later and all is well, though :)

Sure do, but I'm not sure how to post the pics directly to the site.

You could email them to me, if you'd be so kind :) .

If anybody else is interested, say so, and I'll post them- assuming Colin would be willing to shoot them to me in an email.



sneroofing@warpnet.net

Pace,

Just curious, what happened to your left front reflector? I noticed that you left the right front on. Couldn't you install it with the new kit?

Joe

Actually I left both off initially, but then I realized something had to cover the ugly holes left on the right fork. The left side isn't so afflicted, but I'll probably throw it back on so that both sides match! :) :oops:

-Pace

What? People actually keep the reflectors on their bikes :!: :?: My bikes barely make it home from the dealer before they get thrown away!

If you still need the part numbers for the stuff just shoot me a PM. Once you have the #s Email Toru at:

toruf@tsrjp.com

He will take care of you. The m/c he sends looks like it belongs on the XX, but is actually from the Japan CB400F. I've been helping everyone with this stuff. You can see pics of my de-linked set-up at: photoisland.com, u/n: xrdracer, p/w: sydiebit31795
Howie

Thanks Howie.

Man... everyone is so darned helpful here! :grin:

-Pace

I de-linked my 2000 XX several months ago, and did it at no cost. Rather than install the linking hose on each wheel cylinder I removed the pistons and drilled linking passages between the piston bores. The front brake actuates the two outer pistons on both front and back, and the rear actuates all center pistons. It was a simple and quick procedure. There are enough left over banjo bolts to meet the needs when removing all the hoses, plus the stock hoses can still be used after all the excess hoses have been removed. For the LH fork floating caliper I fabricated a two piece arm similar to what is in the commercially available kit. This mod could be done in about four hours at no cost if you have some 3/16 or 1/4 inch aluminum and two 10mm X 1.25 bolts laying about.

I highly recommend this mod whether you do it yourself or install the kit. It literally transforms the brakes on this bike, plus shaves off four pounds of junk and cleans the appearance up considerably.

On bleeding: the initial bleed took a few minutes but I got even better lever feel by going back and bleeding each nipple one stroke of the lever after a few hundred miles and then again a third time after a few hundred more. Each time I got an additional bubble or two and now have a good lever feel.

Seb isn't able to post for some reason but asked that I pass along this small bit of information. He mentioned that his kit came with stainless steel allen headed bolts and washers to blank off any blind threads that remained after the original crap has been removed - he suggested that you should have used those and not refitted his hideous reflectors...... :grin:

I've been doing a lot of corresponding with Seb prior to ordering his Evo III de-linking kit. When I asked him about the need for a 5/8" bore master cylinder, his response was:

"A 5/8" master cylinder is not really necessary - we have had to do this only once in our time for a particularly fussy customer who wanted a 'harder' lever with less feel. Its a subjective thing......

Once delinked a bike should only be bled on its SIDE STAND. The most common problem that people come across is that air gets trapped in the master cylinder (due to the angle of the bars) and this is difficult to overcome when bleeding the bike upright. This problem only affects XXs with stock bars and no other CBS equipped bike - strange eh?

This tends to be the reason people complain of excess lever travel - their system is not bled to 100%. Once delinked the XX will feel the same as or slightly stronger at the lever than stock but with the advantage of six pistons."

YMMV,

Well, Seb may have found that to be the case with the bike he has bled, but on my Bird I needed the new 5/8" master. And I bled my brakes with a Snap-on power bleeder hooked up to my compressor originally. That is why I recommend the bigger master. Also, I was after the same lever travel and feel I got from my old superbike brakes.

Yup... I actually realized this a couple of days ago when I decided to remove both reflectors, and noticed that the supplied stainless allen bolts *just happened* to be a perfect length and pitch. :grin:

So Seb can rest assured - no more hideous crap on my front forks!

-Pace

I just received my de-linking kit today, and actually started by reading the instructions. :grin:

What on earth is "handed"?

Also, what does "feed the standard front to rear link host around the throttle cables and route to the rear of the machine" mean?

I don't have a clue what "handed" means since everything seems to have normal direction threads.

I know that Seb is great about answering questions but before I hit him the a few dozen of those... I thought that I'd ask list members who have already used his kit to de-link their brakes.

YEP... now that I really looked that the contents of the kit, I can see that the instructions are referring to the two CNC-machined black anodised aluminium units that connect the two front ports on the calipers. One is made for the right side and one for the left :grin:

I don't relish the idea of removing all the plastic and gas tank to install this kit but I think that I'm going to really enjoy having normal brakes on the XX.

While I"m at it, I'm also going to install Hyperpro springs and change my coolant.

Seb is referring to the best way to remove the front to rear linking brake pipe. If I remember correctly, it's a long metal pipe(s) that gets disconnected at both ends from the front secondary master cylinder and from the rear master. You then need to bend/twist it so that you can then pull it out from the rear end. Also a good call going with the Hyperpro springs. IMO it's the best bang for the buck to improve the forks.

-Colin

YEP... that makes sense now that I consider what "routing to the rear of the machine means".

How on earth do I get all (or most) of the old fluid out of those lines before I start removing them?

Yeah... I've always installed progressive springs on other bikes and have always been pleased with the results.

Next question...

Which bleeders are used to bleed the brakes when there's only 4 hoses to worry about?

There is a $12 bleeder that you can get from any m/c dealer--its the bolt that the two lines banjo into---with a bleeding nipple on it---helps a ton to bleed the upper system

If you're talking about the bleed valves, all of them. Four up front, two in back. A vacuum bleeder makes this about a 15 minute job, if you don't have one, I'd suggest making the $30 investment- well worth the money.



You don't. Just install some small balloons with rubber bands at the end of any open lines, this does a great job of keeping the fluid off of everything while you yank out the lines (this is advice from Seb when I did mine, works good).

[quote="Redbird"][quote]If you're talking about the bleed valves, all of them. Four up front, two in back. A vacuum bleeder makes this about a 15 minute job, if you don't have one, I'd suggest making the $30 investment- well worth the money[/quote]

I have a Minivac and have used it for years.

I thought that the middle bleed valve was for the line that connected the front and rear calipers and with the de-linking kit, that line would no longer exist.

So... I still need to bleed at 8 valves rather than 3? :sad:

Yeah, you'll be bleeding the center piston more than the line with the center valves, but you've gotta do it. Should only be six, though.

I inadvertently managed to lockup the front tire yesterday. Fortunately I was only doing about 45mph, but it left a pretty good skidmark nonetheless. You obviously gain a LOT more clamping force after de-linking. I always brake using two fingers, and yesterday was no exception.

Glad I found out where the threshold is when the roads were dry. :lol:

-Pace

p.s I was practicing emergency/threshold braking in case you're wondering WTH I was doing.

Since the pistons at a given caliper are now linked, I would have thought that it shouldn't matter which of the two nipples you bleed from. I did all four up front anyway, just in case of trapped air and so forth. Ditto for the two at rear.

-Pace