Dead Battery? Options

[teacherX]

Over the summer my battery began to die. I live on a hill and was able to bump start on the way to work and again to come home. Finally got a new batery and after a week the bike died on the freeway. First the display went dead and then on the off ramp the bike died. Pulled over and the head light was dim. I parked the bike and after work recharged the battery and when I put it on the bike the lights/ display came on first few seconds and then died again. I had the battery checked and its good. Now the bike won't do anything. Thought I'd try this forum before I took it to the dealership. Oh its a 1998 with 50,000 miles.
My thoughts are that it is one of a few things.
1. The main fuse went. Not sure why this would have happened or why it would have allowed me to get off the freeway, other than my guardian angel was looking out for me.
2. Because I ran the bike off the stator all summer it has given up the ghost and now instead of charging is pulling charge.
3. Sears was wrong about the battery being good.
4.????????
Any help would be appreciated.

What would you replace before going to the dealership?
Or can anyone recommend an alternative to the dealership here in San Diego CA.
Thanx
X-topher

[SBBXX]

2. Because I ran the bike off the stator all summer it has given up the ghost and now instead of charging is pulling charge.

My guess is that your stator and/or RR is gone. It's not designed to constantly charge a dead battery.

You can determine a lot with a multimeter. Do a search as there is a lot of information here to help you with that.

Good luck

marty

[rockmeupto125]

1. The main fuse went. Not sure why this would have happened or why it would have allowed me to get off the freeway, other than my guardian angel was looking out for me.

Not happening. God doesn't care about your XX, and does not make blown fuses work just to amuse his party guests.

2. Because I ran the bike off the stator all summer it has given up the ghost and now instead of charging is pulling charge.

Certainly a possibility.

3. Sears was wrong about the battery being good.

Definately a possibility....that Sears was wrong. Do you think those guys changing tires back there are smarter than you?

4.????????

Good idea. Always question. Authority, status quo, right answers....question everything. (not me, of course)

Any help would be appreciated.

What would you replace before going to the dealership?

1. Put a full charge in the battery. This is an overnight, slow charge. Then test it for voltage before connecting it to the motorcycle. If its less than 12, your battery, your charger, or your voltmeter is bad. If its between 12 and 12.5, your battery is probably bad. Check your voltmeter by testing your car battery.

2. Start the bike. Observe for a)slow turnover b)hesitant starting c)miss or backfire d)unusual activity of the gauges.

3. Conduct the tests for the regulator/stator as outlined in the service manual. A quick preliminary is to put a voltmeter across the battery terminals while the bike is running. If you get the same, or slightly less voltage than you got when you checked the battery before you started the bike, rev the bike up. If the voltage doesn't change, or doesn't climb to over 12.5 volts, you're buying a stator. If the voltage is high....14 and up, you're buying a regulator.


If you have any of these problems, run the full tests. One component can influence the others. Just because you have a bad battery doesn't mean you don't have a bad stator as well. One out of limit device can damage another.

[teacherX]

Thanx for the responses.
Yes I realize that God does not care about my bike but the bike did safely make it off the freeway and into a parking lot.
I took the battery home and did charge it over night. Then when I put it on the bike the lights came on for a second and died. Since then nothing. Not even a light on the dash. That's why I suspect the fuse.
I brought the bike home and when I put the charger directly on it again nothing. I would love to get it started but it won't do anything right now.
DOes anyone have a dealer alternative in the San Diego area?
Thanx
X-topher

The reason I am questioning the battery is because as my father always said KISS "keep it simple stupid" Since it was the only diffrent/new thing I am starting there. Can anyone give me a picture of where the fuse is?
Thanx
X-topher

[rockmeupto125]

Can anyone give me a picture of where the fuse is?

Our search function works reasonably well. Check this thread for pictures of the main fuse located to the left of the battery box.

http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?...p;hl=main++fuse


Consider that you may have an increasingly conductive short to ground somewhere in your system. Good luck, electrical gremlins can be difficult.

[JohnS]

To avoid confusion when diagnosing problems with the Blackbird charging system it is important to understand how the charging system really works.

You will not hurt the alternator by operating it at high output because of a flat battery. It always works at max output and what does not go to the battery or other accessories is shorted to earth by the regulator and is sunk as heat.

You will hurt the alternator by running with a battery with a high resistance or open circuit.

There seems to be a lack of understanding on how the system works I am happy to write an article on it and post it if people want to know.

There are more cases of the alternator damaging the battery than the other way around.

JohnS

[lois]

To avoid confusion when diagnosing problems with the Blackbird charging system it is important to understand how the charging system really works.

You will not hurt the alternator by operating it at high output because of a flat battery. It always works at max output and what does not go to the battery or other accessories is shorted to earth by the regulator and is sunk as heat.

You will hurt the alternator by running with a battery with a high resistance or open circuit.

There seems to be a lack of understanding on how the system works I am happy to write an article on it and post it if people want to know.

There are more cases of the alternator damaging the battery than the other way around.

JohnS

I have been in the automotive electric business for 15 years, and I'm not sure if I would agree with your statement as to the operation of a charging system.

Just a quick example, charging systems that run at max output do not last long. Regulators do not like heat....the hotter a regulator gets, the more erratic it's operaton becomes, alternators do not like heat. Hi output = high heat , heat will kill your reg/alternator faster than jack the bear. (thats why your rec/reg is out in the wind at the back of the bird, and alternators have fans in them)

Old batteries kill alternators (burn up the stator, diodes , internal regulators) why....because a battery that is past it's prime will always be asking the charging system for more power than it needs. Over time the work load on the alternator WILL burn something up. A battery works a little bit like a shock absorber
for your charging system, as the vehical uses power from the battery, the regulator senses this deviation and then decreases the Voltage so that the amperage rises to replace power that has been taken from the battery, right? thats why voltage climbs on a charged system....because the amperage has dropped.
Voltage and Amperage work in a see saw fastion, as one rises the other must fall and vise versa.

Not trying to start a pissing war bro Anyways, there are folks on this board who have probabley forgotten more about electricity than most of us will ever know.

[lew69442]

To avoid confusion when diagnosing problems with the Blackbird charging system it is important to understand how the charging system really works.

You will not hurt the alternator by operating it at high output because of a flat battery. It always works at max output and what does not go to the battery or other accessories is shorted to earth by the regulator and is sunk as heat.

You will hurt the alternator by running with a battery with a high resistance or open circuit.

There seems to be a lack of understanding on how the system works I am happy to write an article on it and post it if people want to know.

There are more cases of the alternator damaging the battery than the other way around.

JohnS

What the???? "You will not hurt the alternator by operating it at high output because of a flat battery. It always works at max output and what does not go to the battery or other accessories is shorted to earth by the regulator and is sunk as heat." John you have apparently confused a V/R with a stick welder......

[JohnS]

Definately not trying to start a pissing contest on things electrical but heres my take on how a XX alternator works.

The unit is a permanent magnet alternator with 3 sets of stator windings and is a very simple (primitive) and cheap design.

In an automotive alternator there is no permanent magnet to spin within the stator. The magnet is created by energising the rotor windings via the slip rings and brushes. This process is controlled by the regulator and is able to reduce alternator output as voltage rises above the regulators preset threshold.

With the XX alternator the regulator controls the output of the alternator by switching the output of the unit to earth when the voltage of the alternator reaches the regulators threshold value. It does not matter if the alternator is charging the battery or heating up the regulator the load is still the same.

This I am sure is the reason we see so many problems with this design as I stated in my post they run on full load all the time. Output is proportional to engine RPM and interestingly will result in a flat battery if idling just below 1000 RPM for long enough (dont ask me how I know this). Replacement of stator windings and RR units are constantly being discussed here and is very common. This is also why the later finned RR units last longer than the early ones.

Many bikes share this design from dirt bikes up. The only bike that I have ever owned that did not was a YZF 1000 which ran a conventional alternator.

For the doubters out there refer to the link below which covers a wealth of info on this topic.

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm

Sorry if the above does not come as a link cause it doesn't look like the editor recognises it as one.

The link deals with GS Suzis but the basics are the same in both cases.

JohnS

[SBBXX]

For the doubters out there refer to the link below which covers a wealth of info on this topic.

http://www.thegsresources.com/garage/gs_statorfacts.htm


JohnS

Wow, just saw this.

Sorry JohnS but you're out to lunch, and so is your funny friend. To say that the charging system always operates at max and that excess current is shunted to ground is ludicrous. Voltage is provided by the charging system. Current is drawn by the load. No load=No current. eXXessive load (ie shorted/bad battery) = eXXessive current = eXXessive heat = toasted stator and/or RR.

[teacherX]

That would explain what happened. Excessive need for power = excess heat = dead stator.
Thanx for the explaination.
Now.
How do I replace the stator? I found a new one on Ebay and have ordered the part, can't believe what the dealership wanted!
Is this as simple as replacing an alternator on a car?
How long would say it will take?
Looking forward to getting out and riding again.

[XX_Rider]

Nope not as simple as a car but shouldn't be too hard with the shop manual.

If you do a search I think I remember someone posting pics of a "How to"

[teacherX]

Thanx again for the help. New problem however. When I looked at the main fuse it was broken. Put in a new one it blew again. Replaced the stator and installed a new fuse and the whole electrics started to smoke. Shut off the bike and it continued to smoke/melt. Pulled the battery terminal and it stoped. So it looks like I have a majopr short. Guess its going to the dealership.
Any ways to cut my costs at the dealership? Remove plastics?

[xxbird]

New problem however. When I looked at the main fuse it was broken. Put in a new one it blew again. Replaced the stator and installed a new fuse and the whole electrics started to smoke.

Expensive lesson learned, I hope. If a fuse is blowing off, there is reason. Keep trying with a new fuse ain't gonna solve the problem. You should be greatful that your bike didn't catch on fire. Hope the damage is not much.

[teacherX]

I'll find out today what the damage is. The smoke was coming from the regulator so maybe it's related. Live and learn.
Thanx

[teacherX]

Okay now I'm Pissed! After my little problem I decided to take down to the dealership to have them diagnos it. My Bike has now sat at the dealership for more than a month and they have done nothing! Does anyone have a mechanic in the San Diego area they recommend? I thought taking it to the dealership would be expensive but quick and they would know what they are doing, and maybe they do, but I couldn't tell you. I asked to talk to the manager last week and he gave me back to my service tech. who claims they did something and now need another hour to diagnosis the problem. I just want to RIDE!!!!!!

[Hookman49]

Over the summer my battery began to die. I live on a hill and was able to bump start on the way to work and again to come home. Finally got a new batery and after a week the bike died on the freeway. First the display went dead and then on the off ramp the bike died. Pulled over and the head light was dim. I parked the bike and after work recharged the battery and when I put it on the bike the lights/ display came on first few seconds and then died again. I had the battery checked and its good. Now the bike won't do anything. Thought I'd try this forum before I took it to the dealership. Oh its a 1998 with 50,000 miles.
My thoughts are that it is one of a few things.
1. The main fuse went. Not sure why this would have happened or why it would have allowed me to get off the freeway, other than my guardian angel was looking out for me.
2. Because I ran the bike off the stator all summer it has given up the ghost and now instead of charging is pulling charge.
3. Sears was wrong about the battery being good.
4.????????
Any help would be appreciated.

What would you replace before going to the dealership?
Or can anyone recommend an alternative to the dealership here in San Diego CA.
Thanx
X-topher

Everything you stated here is what happend to my bike. Now I can't tell you what the problem is (and would never try) but my problem was fixed after I replaced me reg/rec. We took it out and it was a mess.

Ken

[teacherX]

Thanx
Went down today and talked to the actual service worker. He seems to agree that the regulator/ rectifier is bad. Finially got somewhere. Problem now is finding one. It seems the 1999 and up is diffrent from the 1997-8. Where did you find yours? Is there another bike that uses the same one?
Thanx

[Hookman49]

Thanx
Went down today and talked to the actual service worker. He seems to agree that the regulator/ rectifier is bad. Finially got somewhere. Problem now is finding one. It seems the 1999 and up is diffrent from the 1997-8. Where did you find yours? Is there another bike that uses the same one?
Thanx

If you want a Honda one you can get it from Ron Ayers. But I would check and see if the R1 would work on your bike. Someone here might have that answer.

Ken