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Mint 2001 Blackbird/No Start


singram

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15 minutes ago, blackhawkxx said:

Fuel, spark and air.  Have you confirmed that you have spark at the spark plugs?

Hmm, honestly that was not even on my radar given that the pump will not prime while in circuit. Lack of spark could prohibit the pump from priming? If thats possible, worth looking into, I suppose.

 

On another note, do you still have your '01 BB? I ask because given the condition of the bike, I'd rather send my ECU to someone willing to hook it up to their bike as opposed to tearing too deep into a showroom condition Bird. 

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1 hour ago, singram said:

Hmm, honestly that was not even on my radar given that the pump will not prime while in circuit. Lack of spark could prohibit the pump from priming? If thats possible, worth looking into, I suppose.

 

On another note, do you still have your '01 BB? I ask because given the condition of the bike, I'd rather send my ECU to someone willing to hook it up to their bike as opposed to tearing too deep into a showroom condition Bird. 

Sorry, you said " I've also attempted to start the bike while "jumping" the pump to an external 12v battery.  Although the pump does prime, the engine just cranks away without starting."  so I wondered if you had spark.  I didn't mean to imply it had a affect on the pump.

I have a 97 Bird, not a 01.

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2 hours ago, singram said:

Hmm, honestly that was not even on my radar given that the pump will not prime while in circuit. Lack of spark could prohibit the pump from priming? If thats possible, worth looking into, I suppose.

 

On another note, do you still have your '01 BB? I ask because given the condition of the bike, I'd rather send my ECU to someone willing to hook it up to their bike as opposed to tearing too deep into a showroom condition Bird. 

I'm also wondering about the spark. And not so much that it's not firing as much as I'm wondering that nothing is working. What ever controls the fire ie: spark and fuel, is what I am assuming isnt working since you still had no fire even with the pump hard wired. Had there been spark it would have started. Also that being said, I do have a 01 and I'm only about 2.5 hours away. Give or take depending on traffic

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1 hour ago, blackhawkxx said:

I didn't mean to imply it had a affect on the pump.

Makes sense.  I think we're on the same page on that note. For sure not limited to the pump, thats for sure.

 

45 minutes ago, Peepa said:

I'm wondering that nothing is working.

Yup, you and me both.

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I no longer have the '01 so I can't test your ECU.  I doubt it's the ECU since you do get power to the pump connector, but the no-start with a jumper on the pump makes me wonder.  Once you've tested for + and - at the connector with a load I think we'll have better information to move forward with.

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Update!!  I hit the front ram air vents with some starting fluid and she started up!!  Sooo, fuel injectors I'd imagine.  But why would the pump not prime while in circuit, but will when jumped? I cant tell if this just got easier or harder😄

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It definitely just got better/easiera.  Knowing that the ignition system works and that you get power at the pump pretty much eliminates the ECU as being the problem.  Pump won't run due to a lack of power/high resistance somewhere.

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I'm guessing that with both meter leads at the pump wires with the pump or other load connected you'll see little voltage.  Alternating the leads with one at the connector and the other at the battery you should find which wire is the one with the problem.  Once we know if it's the + or - that's weak we can find the culprit.

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12 hours ago, singram said:

Update!!  I hit the front ram air vents with some starting fluid and she started up!!  Sooo, fuel injectors I'd imagine.  But why would the pump not prime while in circuit, but will when jumped? I cant tell if this just got easier or harder😄

Kiss,keep it simple stupid.😁 I seriously doubt all injectors would go south all of the sudden. 

Now, based on info provided by you I would jump fuel pump and check fuel pressure.

Edited by tomek
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9 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

If it'll be easier to talk it through gimme a ring.  (626)712-9257 Oscar.

Your instructions are pretty clear, let me hold onto your offer and give them a shot after work- thanks!

 

17 minutes ago, tomek said:

Kiss,keep it simple stupid.😁 I seriously doubt all injectors would go south all of the sudden. 

Now, based on info provided by you I would jump fuel pump and check fuel pressure.

Agreed, lets see what I can come up with today. I'll update from there. Thanks!

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Couple things that were not clear, at least for me 

When you turn key to on position fuel pump will prime for first 2-3 seconds and then goes off, at least that's how many FI systems operate. So, you should really check voltage with starter engaged. However, you did say it would not start with pump jumped so I don't believe that's the issue. 

 

If fuel pressure is ok next line of attack should be cam and crank position sensors. They don't necessarily throw the code (check engine light) even if something is wrong.

Edited by tomek
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42 minutes ago, singram said:

Your instructions are pretty clear, let me hold onto your offer and give them a shot after work- thanks!

 

 

That was for phone sex, stop resisting.

 

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My guess is fuel filter inside the tank is plugged. The pump will still run but that doesn't mean you are getting fuel and since it fired off the spray than you're getting spark 

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22 hours ago, singram said:

Hey there, Jon.  I agree, the ECU is definitely a top contender.  Given that I'd imagine a used ECU would be a non-returnable item, I'll give the "free" tests a go first.

 

That Triumph in your sig, Speed Triple?  I have a cafe'd out '07.  Once the charging/starting issues were sorted, its an amazing bike. 

bikes.jpg

Mine is a Street Triple.  The Speed was a little heavy for what I was wanting.  At 400 lbs. full of gas, the Streety has plenty of power and is a hoot to ride.  Even makes a capable tourer for one, with a Corbin seat and a Givi trunk.  Old pic.  It now has bar-end mirrors, and Ohlins shock.

 

STR4.jpg

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2 hours ago, jon haney said:

Mine is a Street Triple.  The Speed was a little heavy for what I was wanting.  At 400 lbs. full of gas, the Streety has plenty of power and is a hoot to ride.  Even makes a capable tourer for one, with a Corbin seat and a Givi trunk.  Old pic.  It now has bar-end mirrors, and Ohlins shock.

 

STR4.jpg

Beautiful example, Jon!  Agreed on not needing the extra weight. 

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16 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

Alternating the leads with one at the connector and the other at the battery you should find which wire is the one with the problem. 

I'm sorry, I thought it was clear the first time I read your suggestion 😀. The first test, I'll be testing voltage at the pump wires with the pump attached and the Start switch i the ON position. Easy enough. 

 

The 2nd test, also with the pump attached and the switch ON, I'll first test voltage from the (Green -)to the battery NEG, then from the (Brown+) to the battery POS, is that correct? 

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Ok, we're much closer.  Here's what I got now-

 

  • With a meter across the pump connector leads(pump attached)- no voltage at start
  • Testing voltage across connector leads with pump disconnected- 12v for 1 second only, then nothing
  • Testing continuity from pump connector GREEN to frame Ground- Good
  • Very important here - Testing continuity from Brown pump connector to Fuel Cut Off Brown- NOTHING

Ran an auxiliary wire from the Pump connector to the Fuel Cut Off Relay in tandem with the Brown wire- Pump primes, motor starts and BlackBird Fires to life!! 

Sooo, damaged Brown wire? Looking at the wiring diagram, Brown doesnt seem to go anywhere or to anything else.  Can I simply snip the Brown off the Relay side and pump side and simply run another wire in parallel and insulated with the main harness?

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It sounds like you could safely do what you say, but I'd cut the factory brown wire off at both ends instead of doing tandem.  A wire rarely goes bad without damage so if it's pinched/cut somewhere it's safer to have it be dead than have it be energized.

 

Congratulations!

 

I don't recall if you said so, but what did you pay for it?

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I just re-read and you said snip it off, I glossed over that.

 

I took a quick look in my manual and don't see a fuel pump fuse but I think they have one.  If there is and it's on the inlet side of the relay then no problem.  If the fuse is on the outlet that's probably where the problem is, and your auxiliary wire would be bypassing it.  Simple test, if there is a fuse, pull it with your auxiliary wire on and see if the pump stops.

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