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Mint 2001 Blackbird/No Start


singram

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Hello all. So, just a couple days ago, I took possession of an absolute MINT 2001 1100XX. At 13000 miles, this bike looks like it came out of a time capsule. I bought it for a steal with one caveat- the bike will not start. It cranks as strong as it should, but will not start. In the 2 days I've had it, here's what I've discovered and what I've tried-

The pump does not prime while inline, however if disconnected from its connector and jumped with the battery, it will.
All fuses check out ok, and all relays activate when removed and tested.
The pump connector receives its momentary 12v when engaging the Start/Stop Switch(as I believe it should).
I've disassembled the Start/Stop Switch Assembly and cleaned/dielectric greased all contacts.
No FI lights displaying at testing.

Sooo, with 2 days of Blackbird research, I believe I can conclude that the ECU and connectivity are good given that 12v is sent up to the pump when it should. I think I can also conclude that the pump is good, since jumping directly to a battery brings it to life. I unfortunately lack the knowledge and experience with this bike to tell what else could prevent initial priming while everything is in circuit. Bank sensor, perhaps? Something still amiss within the tank? May be worth noting, but I'm told this bike started last Fall before putting away for the Winter. The previous owner kept the bike in the house with very minimal fuel, so possibly something within the fuel pump assembly in the tank is gummed up? Anyway, thanks ahead for any thoughts suggestions?

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Carefully inspect wire harness for broken wires or insulation.  Rodents sometimes chew on wires.  Did you test the wires to the pump to see if they energized as they should have?

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The pump itself works and you have 12v+ at the connector so I'm guessing it has no ground.  My guess is the wire loom test connector is the culprit.  It's also possible that you're getting 12v+ to your meter with the pump disconnected, but there's a high resistance somewhere so that with the pump connected it doesn't get power.  Test for 12+ at the connector with the pump connected.  If you get power then it's the ground.  You could run a jumper to the ground side to verify that the bike delivers power and the pump runs, then chase down the ground problem.

 

I'm tired & lazy, but if you search 'test connector' or "wire loom fix" you should find more details.

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Thanks for the input, very appreciated!  Superhawk,I'll be sure to have a closer look at the harness ground and specifically the test connector and report back.

 

I'm not sure how I missed my location when I set up my account, but I'm in the Western Chicago 'burbs specifically St Charles, Il. 

 

 

EDIT: I just remembered why I didnt pursue the "Test Connector fix".  If I understand correctly, this only applies to 99-00 models- would my 2001 be affected? 

Edited by singram
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41 minutes ago, singram said:

EDIT: I just remembered why I didnt pursue the "Test Connector fix".  If I understand correctly, this only applies to 99-00 models- would my 2001 be affected? 

For '01 Honda moved the connector up a little bit and maybe did a slightly better job of sealing it.  For a very long time it was assumed that Honda's fix cured the problem, but all it did was prolong the inevitable.  My '01 had the connector corrosion issue and others have reported it too.  In my case it started out with the classic symptoms; occasional FI light flicker, engine sputter/occasional stalling, and quickly progressed to a point where I didn't trust riding it.  Maybe it's what happened to yours and it got parked, maybe, just my guess.

 

I think the pump ground is one of the several that are bundled with the test connector.  If you find that the ground is why your pump won't run verify where it's ground is, it could be somewhere else.  Either way, I suggest that you check the connector anyway.  If you catch it before any corrosion starts it's an easy fix to keep it good.  Left unchecked long enough corrosion can wick far up the wires.

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54 minutes ago, superhawk996 said:

I think the pump ground is one of the several that are bundled with the test connector.  If you find that the ground is why your pump won't run verify where it's ground is, it could be somewhere else.  Either way, I suggest that you check the connector anyway.  If you catch it before any corrosion starts it's an easy fix to keep it good.  Left unchecked long enough corrosion can wick far up the wires.

 

It takes some clever work, but here's a test.

 

Find a way to insert an extra wire to the ground side plug for the fuel pump.  Put plug on fuel pump.  Try to cycle power.  If no pump, take the extra wire and touch it to a known ground.  If it starts up, you have a bad ground situation and know where to search.  This, of course, presumes you have power going to the pump.

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1 hour ago, superhawk996 said:

My '01 had the connector corrosion issue and others have reported it too.  In my case it started out with the classic symptoms; occasional FI light flicker, engine sputter/occasional stalling, and quickly progressed to a point where I didn't trust riding it. 

 

....that's why I had infered that. I went through it on my 2000.

 

The classic thread, there are others:

 

 

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Wow, so many awesome responses already!  Really make me miss old school motorcycle enthusiast sites even more! Guys I'll have a look at the test connector/ground and be sure to update my findings.

 

Superhawk, yeah after posting the question about years affected by the test connector corrosion, I found the sticky regarding it. Sure enough, approx 3 pages in, a member posted issues in the UK with newer models. 

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4 hours ago, singram said:

Superhawk, yeah after posting the question about years affected by the test connector corrosion, I found the sticky regarding it. Sure enough, approx 3 pages in, a member posted issues in the UK with newer models. 

 

Yeah, but the newer UK models had Lucas electrics, so like no duh.

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13 minutes ago, RXX said:

 

Yeah, but the newer UK models had Lucas electrics, so like no duh.

....snort.

 

A friend here in WI told me yesterday his MG has electrical issues. I took a poke at Lucas Electrics. He said he thought there were in fact some on-noard.

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Superhawk, I understand the test connector has been relocated on the 2001 models- I assume its on the same side, but further up, do you recall exactly where? I had a look inside the loom on the leftside tail near the passenger peg, but nothing looks like the pics I've seen of the connector.  This bike is so clean, I'm really hesitant about tearing more into it than I have to 😁

 

Zero, I tried your test with the auxiliary ground wire going from the ground side of the pump to the ground point on the cross frame under the seat- no prime.  Note also, I have continuity from the original ground connector for the pump to the ground mounting point on the frame. 

 

I have to be honest- if water corrosion is the killer of this test connector, I'd be shocked if this bike was affected. This is a fair weather bike that lived its life in someone's living room. I dont think I've ever seen a bike so clean that wasnt sitting on a dealer's floor.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, singram said:

Zero, I tried your test with the auxiliary ground wire going from the ground side of the pump to the ground point on the cross frame under the seat- no prime.  Note also, I have continuity from the original ground connector for the pump to the ground mounting point on the frame.

 

Do you have current on the hot wire as well?

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3 minutes ago, Zero Knievel said:

 

Do you have current on the hot wire as well?

During the test, I had both the test ground and the original ground connector in tandem.  The continuity from the frame ground point to the ground connector I was referring to was the original only.  Sorry for the confusion😀

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1 hour ago, singram said:

This is a fair weather bike that lived its life in someone's living room.

He lied.  NOBODY keeps a bike in their living room.

🙂

 

 

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The second photo was probably during the connector fix.  I don't think I took a photo of the connector.  It's in the same area as the earlier bikes.  IIRC there's a bit of a lump in the harness where the connector is.  If the bike has been kept dry and you plan to continue that it might be ok to ignore the connector.  Mine showed signs of being left outside a fair bit, enough to fade the frame paint.

 

Lemme make sure I've got this right so far: Your pump works when you put jumper leads to it, the connector shows power when it's disconnected from the pump and you turn the key on, and the connector has a seemingly good ground connection.

Either the connector isn't making good contact to the pump (less likely) or there's a resistance in the power or ground to the connector, more likely.  I don't remember if the connector lets you put a meter into the back side to test for power while plugged into the pump.  It might have a cap you can take off to get access.  If it does let you, put both meter leads on it and cycle the key.  If it shows reduced power then individually probe the + and - while putting the other meter lead to the appropriate battery post and that'll let you see if it's the + or - that's not getting to the pump so you know which one to chase.  If the connector doesn't let you probe it disconnect it and connect it to a load.  Jumpers to the pump, or connect it to a headlight bulb if you have one, or something that'll put a load on the circuit and allow you to put the meter to it under load.

Maybe before doing all that: if there's another relay that's the same as the pump relay, swap it and see if that gets the pump to prime.  A relay can work and have a shitty contact with high resistance.

 

Before continuing on checking stuff, disconnect the vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator to see if any gas comes from it when you prime the pump, if so, leave it off for now.  The regulator seems to not like sitting around and will often start leaking shortly after seeing use again which will flood that cylinder with gas, I think it goes to #3.  Plan on replacing it, I think it's worth the peace of mind.  I think mine was already leaking slightly when I got the bike and didn't take long to start having problems because of it.  I've read of some hydrolocking the motor because of it.

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2 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

Lemme make sure I've got this right so far: Your pump works when you put jumper leads to it, the connector shows power when it's disconnected from the pump and you turn the key on, and the connector has a seemingly good ground connection.

This is correct, though important to note- I've also attempted to start the bike while "jumping" the pump to an external 12v battery.  Although the pump does prime, the engine just cranks away without starting. I'll need a bit of time to test your recommendations, but it seems like the bike is in some sort of "lock out" state, either by design(switch, sensor, etc), or some sort of short or connectivity issue.  I welcome any and all recommendations and assistance(the responses so far are hugely appreciated!), but it really seems to me that this issue is beyond fuel delivery. Just my thought, you guys are the Blackbird experts!  🙂

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By the way, Superhawk- nice bikes!!  A few years ago, my F4I spent the Winter in my living room while sorting out the valve adjustment and undertail😀  Speaking of undertails, I haven yet sourced a solution for the BB, but its on my short list once it starts-she's got a BIIGGG a$$😄  

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24 minutes ago, jon haney said:

Could it be the ECU?

Hey there, Jon.  I agree, the ECU is definitely a top contender.  Given that I'd imagine a used ECU would be a non-returnable item, I'll give the "free" tests a go first.

 

That Triumph in your sig, Speed Triple?  I have a cafe'd out '07.  Once the charging/starting issues were sorted, its an amazing bike. 

bikes.jpg

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