Boom Truck Blues for Your Amusement

[rockmeupto125]

More of a meandering whine than anything else, but describing my problem may garner some amusing ideas I haven't considered as a fix. Might even make me think through the problem.

 

I have this van with a boom on it, or if you prefer, a bucket.  We name most of our vehicles, even if its only for the color.  Blue is blue, there's Big Red, and Pappy.  Then there's the Big Fucking White Truck with the Bucket, or boom on it, which has shortened to The Bucket Truck, which is pretty good, only four syllables, but I think I'm going to name it Boom Shakala, which is only 1 syllable net shorter because the "boom" is implied but silent. Saying "the bucket truck" requires that you move your lips, and therefore your face, requiring more effort than just the open mouth and tongue wave after the initial jaw movement to make the "sh" sound, so Shakala will be easier.  Plus, Shakala sounds cooler.  Anyway, I digress.....

 

The boom on Shakala is moved by hydraulic rams powered by a hydraulic pump which is powered by an Onan gas engine. This gas engine has an electric starter.  Power for the starter and to run the Onan was originally coming from the left hand battery in the engine compartment. The right hand battery is the "main battery" for the truck operation.  Before I owned the truck, a fancy electrical switch was installed that I believe allowed the alternator to charge both batteries when the truck was running, and automatically disconnect the main battery from the pony battery if the system voltage lowered to a critical point, presumably so you could still maintain power to start the truck.  It makes sense this would occur if you were running the Onan engine with the truck off, and power was constantly draining from the system. Once the power reached, I don't know, 11 volts or whatever, the system would disconnect and leave the Onan engine running on one battery, so when that one discharged enough that the Onan engine stopped, you could still get a ladder, or maybe let yourself down on a rope, or crawl down the boom or something because you don't have hydraulics, and without power, the solenoid safety switches in the bucket controls don't work to let you down, so you're kinda screwed anyway,  but at least you can start the truck and drive away after you fall trying to get out of the bucket and break your leg, because its an automatic (they thought of everything).

 

I guess this system stopped working, maybe because the left battery wasn't strong enough, or well, who knows....but the point is, again before I got it, the system was "fixed."   A momentary contact toggle switch was installed under the dash that when activated would power the solenoid that closed the circuit between the two batteries. Then a solid copper wire with blue insulation (to match the interior)was installed by looping one end around the emergency brake release, and the other wound with a loop to fit over the momentary contact switch toggle arm, making for a randomly variable, but temporarily permanent contact switch. This gave the system enough oomph to power the Onan starter and make putt-putt noises that enable the boom to go up and down and bypassed the aforementioned fancy electrical low current safety switch. You place this wire on the switch to hold it until you're done with the Onan, after which you slip it off the toggle and stop current to the pony motor. This is essentially how it was explained to me. Okay, it works, who cares?

 

So here's my dilemma. The Onan engine seems to take a lot of electrical juices, and after a couple hours of on and off running, with multiple shut downs and restarts, there's enough drained from the tandem batteries that the truck won't start. Just to clarify, the Onan can be shut down and started from high in the bucket, so if you're working in one place, you don't have to have the engine running constantly.  I don't know if the starter on the Onan is just drawing big current, because it's kinda slow to start up, and probably has been used quite a bit in its career.  When the Onan is shut down, the circuit is still closed, so it's like leaving the ignition key on, just no ding-ding-dinging.

 

Now how do I guarantee there is enough electrical juice to get me down from a height?  Do I set a timer to come down and start the truck up every hour to run it for 15 minutes and charge the battery?  Do I just leave the truck running all the time and run two engines? Those are my options now without making any changes.  Gas is expensive, but it probably doesn't burn more than a gallon an hour, right? But there is wear and tear on the engine, and it's loud.  And definitely hotter working over 350 cubic inches of combustion. 

 

So what else could I do?  I could buy two BIG batteries, spending $150 each, and probably have enough reserve capacity for a few hours more.  That's pricey, and I guess I could use them someplace else in the off season, but where?  I could get a remote battery voltage gizmo that blutooths to my phone so I could check the voltage, and stop what I'm doing to come down and start the truck before it doesn't have the juice to spin over, floods out, and I end up sitting for half an hour before I can get the truck started and back to work.  Nah.  What I need is a small quiet gas powered source for power just for the Onan engine.  A generator!  I looked...those quiet ones are hella expensive! But wait........they won't provide enough amperage to run a starter....I'll have to have a battery reservoir as well.  Then use the generator to recharge the battery? But I already have a battery, and a charger on the truck.  I could get a small generator, and a battery charger and another battery, and hook that straight up to the Onan.  That would have to run continuously, though. I could go to the junkyard, score an alternator and hook it up to an XX engine mounted in a jig on a pallet with pulleys and belts.  Yeah, I have enough projects. 

 

I sure don't want to try to sort out the 50 or so pounds of unconnected copper wire floating around in this truck to try to fix it back to original spec.  I just want a bandaid fix, redneck engineering style, that don't take much time and don't cost too much.  Nothin's easy, I guess. 

 

Maybe I'll run up to the gunshop and see if they got any ammunition.

 

[XXitanium]

...pics Ihe Onan installation?

[Furbird]

Yadda yadda, Osama and yo momma made Barack Hussein Obama...

What year is the van?

The hydraulics in the bucket are electrical over hydraulic?  As in you have to have electric and hydraulic to operate them from the bucket?

Option one.  Remote starter on the van.
Option two.  Vehicle voltage gauge in the bucket.  Best to use with option one or else you're going to be getting down a lot.

Option three.  Battery in the bucket that allows the solenoids to work, if they are electrical, to allow the hydraulics to release so you can get down if the vehicle batteries die.
Option four (and very dumb, very expensive, do not do this, you've been warned).  Run an ignition switch for the van all the way up the bucket (again, don't do this, you will need MEGA wire size or will have to relay EVERY WIRE ON THE SWITCH IN THE DASH to run smaller wires that far, DO NOT DO THIS).
Option five.  Get rid of whatever fancy schmancy thingie you had on there and the redneckery you have now and get an isolator and wire it correctly to eliminate this battery problem so you're not killing your vehicle battery.  Again, do this with another option while you're at it.

Obviously, check all your wiring, make sure you're not about to burn down the neighborhood or whatever Slapper says, Hookers, and get a check from Dave to pay for everything.  That about covers it, I think?  Oh, and you're racist.  And move.  And whatever else everybody is complaining about.

[XXitanium]

Harbor Freight aye? ...and a few rolls of HF Duct Tape!

 

 

[XXitanium]

You're gonna take safety advice from a guy that glues carpet on his crotch-rocket?

[rockmeupto125]

This gets more confusing.

[SwampNut]

Huh, I know that machine.  Oscar now has mine, pretty sure he can answer any question on it.

 

[XXitanium]

Technically a generator. I didn't think to ask for a picture of the service tag. Single phase 120-240V, 60hz -14kVA? ...not tiny. 

[rockmeupto125]

[XXitanium]

My old eyes, it shrank in the wash.

[CALCXX]

I'm curious, what all is being powered by the 120vac generator? 

Have you checked the DC charge voltage at the generator?

I don't have a clear picture of the parallel battery switching/isolation tom foolery going on. 

imo, you should verify that the Onan can stand alone and then introduce battery switching backup in emergency.

The hyd pump is probably just an engine starter motor driving a hydraulic pump. Draws a hellava lot of current.

I am not surprised it drains down batteries even in parallel.

Edited April 23, 2021 by CALCXX

[superhawk996]

So I'm guessing the generator runs an AC powered electric pump.-?  Plug an old school battery charger into it so that when it's running it's also charging the battery(ies).  I say old school cuz most modern ones require you to press buttons every time it's powered up.  Any charger that starts running as soon as you put the cord into the wall hole will work, that's basically what'll be happening every time you fire up the gen to run the pump.

 

As for it drawing power when shut off, it shouldn't.  While it's running you'll be powering the coil and fuel pump, when stopped there should be no draw.  If the coil and/or pump are wired to run off some other switch that has to be turned on before starting the gen then it's been nigger rigged and will draw power the whole time that switch is on.

 

Tips: If it ever starts acting like it's starving for gas like the carb is clogged, but it's not, it could be the intake manifold.  It's a two piece design (top and bottom halves) and eventually the sealant gives and you get a vacuum leak(s).  That was a bitch to figure out.  New manifolds apparently don't exist, NOS are hen's teeth, used is probably just a band-aid.  I split mine and re-sealed it with Seal-All glue and it's holding up so far, several months.

Second is the fuel pump.  They're very good, but when it dies the 'proper' replacement is spendy.  Generic parts store pumps might draw too much power for the circuit, don't have very good lift so it might not work depending on how high the gen is above the tank, and make too much pressure so you'd have to add a regulator and do some extra plumbing.  After a ton of searching I bought an aircraft fuel pump that had the right output pressure, huge lift ability, low draw, was fairly easy to fit, and most importantly it was way less $.  If I find the info I'll add it.

 

Everything about that gen looks identical to mine except that mine doesn't have an oil filter, I guess you got the fancier one.  If you want a project: I added a 3 way switch to the fuel pump.  'Automatic', it acts just like factory.  'Off' to let the carb run dry at the end of a trip and prevent buildup issues.  'Prime' to not have to crank it for several seconds while waiting for the carb to fill.  None of that is necessary, they work perfectly fine, but not being about to drain or prime bugged me and now I feel better about it.

[superhawk996]

And if there's an external switch that powers the coil it's probably gonna cook it and the points so get rid of it or run it up to the bucket.

 

And name: Ole bucket.  It's a bucket truck, it's old, calling it an old bucket is not an insult, and it's few syllables.

[rockmeupto125]

I'm learning, or re-learning lots of stuff about it that I'm sure I knew and forgot.  My heads at capacity, like my garage, and its really hard to find anything in it, even though I know that I knew this stuff a while ago.  Hmm.

 

I was surprised to find out it was a twin, and what's the generator stuff?  if it makes electric, why can't it run itself?  And where ARE the points, anyway?

 

It runs off the truck tank, doesn't crank long to start with the choke and I only have to leave it on for a few seconds.  I  have a little loop of metal fit in the lever to keep the choke from closing as it runs. I's all redneck engineering.  There's plugs in the bucket for AC and lots of disconnected wires in the whole mix.

 

I know, I really need to start from scratch with it...(nails in eyes screaming)

[superhawk996]

It makes 120v, and/or 240v AC, not sure if it'll do both simultaneously or if it has to be wired for one or the other.  There's no 12v. DC output that I know of.  They're mostly used in RVs which have on board battery chargers powered off the gen, but there could be an option for a 12v output that mine doesn't have.

 

The points are inside the small rectangular metal box to the right of the carb, I think it's a single screw holding the cover down.

 

The choke 'should' be automatic and works pretty well when everything's adjusted right, I see yours has been disassembled.  For occasional use I guess it's no biggie as long as you're not in the air with it off long enough for it to cool down and not restart without the choke.  The carb should have a mixture screw on the bottom (main jet adjustment), I don't think it has a low speed mixture adjustment.  There's no starter motor, it uses the generator as a motor to spin the engine, that's why it typically starts cranking kinda softly and ramps up to speed rather than the normal instant crank speed.  The points & pump should only get power while cranking and while running, when it's off power is automatically killed to them.  There's brushes in the gen that are supposed to be checked/replaced every XX hours.  I've never done this on any gen and have never encountered ones that wore out.  This all assuming it's the same as mine, it appears to be other than the oil filter.  My guess is that's part of a 'commercial duty' upgrade vs. my RV/consumer grade unit.  IIRC it took me a fair bit of digging to find a free manual online, if I find that link I'll post it.

 

The 'norm' for generators this size is a single cylinder running at 3600RPM, this is a twin running 1800.  Smoother, quieter, theoretically more fuel efficient.  I had a rough gallon per hour number on my buddy's similar unit and IIRC it was well under 1 GPH at our typical light load use.  The van engine at idle will probably be around 1-1.5 GPH, plus the wear & carbon that happens during extended idle, I wouldn't wanna leave it running either.

 

I just noticed the metal plate attached to the right side and there appears to be a round thing sticking out in the middle of it, is that a pulley?  Does it have a working hour meter?

[rockmeupto125]

12 hours ago, CALCXX said:

I'm curious, what all is being powered by the 120vac generator? 

Have you checked the DC charge voltage at the generator?

I don't have a clear picture of the parallel battery switching/isolation tom foolery going on. 

imo, you should verify that the Onan can stand alone and then introduce battery switching backup in emergency.

The hyd pump is probably just an engine starter motor driving a hydraulic pump. Draws a hellava lot of current.

I am not surprised it drains down batteries even in parallel.

 

I have no idea what is powered by the generator.

I haven't checked any voltage recently.  Do you mean what the generator is putting out?

I'll post a picture of the isolation unit.

I should verify a lot of things.  More later.

It's not a starter motor.

 

1 hour ago, superhawk996 said:

It makes 120v, and/or 240v AC, not sure if it'll do both simultaneously or if it has to be wired for one or the other.  There's no 12v. DC output that I know of.  They're mostly used in RVs which have on board battery chargers powered off the gen, but there could be an option for a 12v output that mine doesn't have.

 

The points are inside the small rectangular metal box to the right of the carb, I think it's a single screw holding the cover down.

 

The choke 'should' be automatic and works pretty well when everything's adjusted right...

 

There's no starter motor, it uses the generator as a motor to spin the engine, that's why it typically starts cranking kinda softly and ramps up to speed rather than the normal instant crank speed. 

 

The 'norm' for generators this size is a single cylinder running at 3600RPM, this is a twin running 1800. 

 

I just noticed the metal plate attached to the right side and there appears to be a round thing sticking out in the middle of it, is that a pulley?  Does it have a working hour meter?

 

 

No 12 volt.  Makes some sense, or at least fits the picture.

I found the points.

Without the spring, or whatever was in the automatic choke body, that's history. I do it by hand.  Should look on ebay for the right equipment. 

Excellent information about the starting, makes me feel less concerned for the behavior and also why I can't find a starter motor.

Metal plate on the right.  Ummm....brace mount for the hydraulic pump, powered by a belt and pulley off the right side of the unit with hoses that run to the hydraulic supply tank and to the high pressure side of the boom.

 

I need to dig out my clamp-o-matic meter and start looking at draw.  It's been in the 20's, so I didn't want to stress on the equipment, but 60's next week so I'll start poking at it.

[rockmeupto125]

 

Here's the isolation unit.

 

 

 

 

 

Solenoid chicanery activated by the redneck switch.

 

 

 

 

Redneck switch.  My error, didn't mean to cloud the issue.  The mounting point of the switch activation tether is the hood release, not the E-brake as originally stated.  This may change the whole picture.

 

 

 

Miscellaneous cables/wires I have no clue where they were supposed to go.

 

 

 

 

Previously posted picture with control box.

 

 

This is a view of the loose wires that stick out of the top of the control box.

 

 

 

Close up of the aggravation in the control box.  Right hand stud of the solenoid (yellow crimp) is where I put a cable from a battery to allow it to start when the start button is pressed.

 

 

 

 

Same thing, different view.

 

 

 

 

Here's the hydraulics and switchery on the boom stand itself.

 

 

 

And the front side of that.

 

 

 

 

This sits bolted quite aggressively to the mount. I have no clue what it does, I see only 2 hydraulic lines going to it, and nothing else.  ????    The high pressure and supply lines to the hydraulic pump run underneath into the poney engine compartment to the left.

 

 

 

Here's the back side of the engine with the hydraulic pump.  Hard to get a good picture.

 

 

 

Found the points cover.

 

 

And the body of the choke control, just no guts.

 

[SwampNut]

I believe these documents apply to that generator.  Oscar can confirm or deny.

 

 

Onan service manual 900-0196.pdf Onan parts BFA 3.0-4.0 965-0222.pdf

[rockmeupto125]

Sweet.  Thank you.

[superhawk996]

Ok, I was originally thinking it used an electric pump for the hydraulics and the generator powered that.  So the electric generation portion is just to be able to run power tools.

 

The isolator automatically charges both batteries from the van engine without letting either battery drain the other one when the engine is off.  The switch should activate the solenoid to connect the two batteries together for 'emergency starting' if the battery you need goes dead....basically it's remote control jumper cables.  The tether for holding the switch leads me to believe that the isolator stopped working, or maybe it was rigged so that everything could run with only one battery or one good and one shitty battery.  Ideally there would be a lead in the bucket to the 'emergency start' solenoid, that would solve the dead battery while stuck in the air problem...as long as the switch in the cab wasn't locked on with the tether.  There's a few ways to solve the battery discharge problem, a basic battery charger is probably the cheapest & easiest.

[rockmeupto125]

As long as I have power.  Like an auxiliary generator to power the battery charger....and around we go. 

 

Still this is a good exercise.  I now know it is a 4.0 BFA-3CR, a 4kw two cylinder generator capable of producing 120 and 240 volts. 

 

But why is it in this truck?  The genset is not powering anything.  The engine is powering the hydraulic, and the truck electrics are powering the switching and electrics of the boom.  More ??????

[superhawk996]

26 minutes ago, SwampNut said:

I believe these documents apply to that generator.  Oscar can confirm or deny.

 

 

Onan service manual 900-0196.pdf 4.32 MB · 0 downloads Onan parts BFA 3.0-4.0 965-0222.pdf 1.5 MB · 0 downloads

The service manual covers my 4.0 BFA-1Rxxx RV unit, but not his 4.0 BFA-3CRxxx.  The only obvious differences I see is that his has an oil filter and 120/240v output instead of my 120v only.  The rest of it is probably the same, but dunno.  The parts book does cover his -3CRxxx. I assume the "C" is for commercial, but I've been assuming it was a commercial duty unit from the start so maybe that's why my head is stuck on that.  It could mean anything.

[SwampNut]

Probably for powering other tools needed on the job, like a bench grinder, recip saw, lights, etc.  They weren't so big on Lipo tools in the 80s.

[SwampNut]

"For Elec Eqpt Only" on the label is interesting and some sort of clue.  Hard to parse what it means, but thinking maybe "not for powering onboard devices?"

 

[superhawk996]

5 minutes ago, rockmeupto125 said:

As long as I have power.  Like an auxiliary generator to power the battery charger....and around we go. 

 

Still this is a good exercise.  I now know it is a 4.0 BFA-3CR, a 4kw two cylinder generator capable of producing 120 and 240 volts. 

 

But why is it in this truck?  The genset is not powering anything.  The engine is powering the hydraulic, and the truck electrics are powering the switching and electrics of the boom.  More ??????

You have a generator right there that'll power the charger.

They installed a generator so that the worker could use power tools.  Other option was to install a gas powered hydraulic pump and a separate generator.