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Power Commander vs TFI Controller, winner is...?


Steve Smith

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On 8/25/2018 at 11:07 PM, superhawk996 said:

Dynos correct can as well as they can using whatever programing they have.  If they were perfect there wouldn't be disparities among them.

3%/1,000ft. might be the average loss is, but there's no way it can be the same for every engine.

Dry air helps whether NA or not.  Water can help make power, humidity hurts.

Law of physics tells as it is 3% unless the engine belongs to Cuban, then is is different.;-) . Water injection does two things. Evaporation heat brings the intake temperatures down and water in combustion chamber acts as a detonation supressent or octane booster. Back in the first Formula 1 turbo era water injection was banned but Agip who was fuel supplier for Ferrari managed to mix encapsulated water with fuel. It would brake down under the heat of combustion and act as octane booster. The point is humidity allowes to run higher boost levels.

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7 minutes ago, tomek said:

Law of physics tells as it is 3% unless the engine belongs to Cuban, then is is different.;-) . Water injection does two things. Evaporation heat brings the intake temperatures down and water in combustion chamber acts as a detonation supressent or octane booster. Back in the first Formula 1 turbo era water injection was banned but Agip who was fuel supplier for Ferrari managed to mix encapsulated water with fuel. It would brake down under the heat of combustion and act as octane booster. The point is humidity allowes to run higher boost levels.

It's not a law of physics.  There might be one stating there's 3% less air density or something like that, but that can't dictate how much HP loss an engine will have.  Law of knowledge tells me that your 3% 'rule' relies on a system that's properly compensating for the altitude, if the system (or a person) doesn't compensate the loss is bigger.  It's well known that traditional carbureted engines loose more than EFI engines at high altitude, your 3% rule is clearly flawed.

 

Again; humidity doesn't help, water can help.  Humidity doesn't cool things, water does.  And water's ability to cool things is hampered by high humidity.  Water cools by absorbing heat as it turns into a gas, humidity is water already in a gaseous state so it's done absorbing heat.  It you have something credible showing that humidity helps please post it, water injection and water in the fuel is water, humidity is not water.

 

Your last sentence is generally true, just as high altitude generally allows running higher boost.  But that extra boost isn't making more power than you'd have in dry conditions or low altitude. The extra boost is compensating for the lack of oxygen.  Making that extra boost takes energy and adds heat so even if it gets the same amount of oxygen into the cylinders there's a power loss when compared to low humidity/low altitude and less boost.

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46 minutes ago, superhawk996 said:

It's not a law of physics.  There might be one stating there's 3% less air density or something like that, but that can't dictate how much HP loss an engine will have.  Law of knowledge tells me that your 3% 'rule' relies on a system that's properly compensating for the altitude, if the system (or a person) doesn't compensate the loss is bigger.  It's well known that traditional carbureted engines loose more than EFI engines at high altitude, your 3% rule is clearly flawed.

 

Again; humidity doesn't help, water can help.  Humidity doesn't cool things, water does.  And water's ability to cool things is hampered by high humidity.  Water cools by absorbing heat as it turns into a gas, humidity is water already in a gaseous state so it's done absorbing heat.  It you have something credible showing that humidity helps please post it, water injection and water in the fuel is water, humidity is not water.

 

Your last sentence is generally true, just as high altitude generally allows running higher boost.  But that extra boost isn't making more power than you'd have in dry conditions or low altitude. The extra boost is compensating for the lack of oxygen.  Making that extra boost takes energy and adds heat so even if it gets the same amount of oxygen into the cylinders there's a power loss when compared to low humidity/low altitude and less boost.

Your are arguing with things that I did not say. You have twisted my post, whatever. Have a nice day.

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41 minutes ago, tomek said:

BTW, it is difficult to have rational and adult discussion with you because you make things up as it suits you.

 

I don't know what I twisted and had no intent to.  Please point out what I made up.

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4 hours ago, tomek said:

207 k miles on K&N. It has failed to fuck my engine. Sucker is one who repeatedly buys Oem air filters.

I'm curious about this because I see a lot of dusty intakes where K&Ns are used.  Do you oil it frequently?  Wash & oil regularly or just keep oiling then wash when it's plugged up?

 

It's undeniable that a paper filter does a better job, this has shied me away from K&Ns, but I don't know how much impact that dust has on the motor.  When I buy something with a K&N on it I either replace it right away or oil it up to buy time.  I don't clean it, just oil it real good so it'll filter better.  Adding oil to a dusty one makes for better filtration, tho possibly robbing some power.

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1 hour ago, superhawk996 said:

I'm curious about this because I see a lot of dusty intakes where K&Ns are used.  Do you oil it frequently?  Wash & oil regularly or just keep oiling then wash when it's plugged up?

 

It's undeniable that a paper filter does a better job, this has shied me away from K&Ns, but I don't know how much impact that dust has on the motor.  When I buy something with a K&N on it I either replace it right away or oil it up to buy time.  I don't clean it, just oil it real good so it'll filter better.  Adding oil to a dusty one makes for better filtration, tho possibly robbing some power.

Very casual about maintenance. I've cleaned that probably 3-4 times. By cleaning I mean pounding against the floor the get most of the crap out and spraying fresh oil. That's it for the car and street bike.Race bike - proper wash and oiling once per season.I do agree intake tracks looks dirtier with KN and as such I would not use it in something like class 8 truck were engine is expected to last over 1 million miles.

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After going through my collection of old drag strip time slips, I found the ones from when I raced my custom "Purple Plazma" '03. Only ran it at a full 1/4 mile strip one night (for some reason?). This was back in September 22nd of 2005. Temp was 78 degrees and 77% humidity. With two teeth up on the back sprocket and a full Muzzy (no tuning at all), and a stock air filter, it went 10.615 @ 136.83 mph.

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2 hours ago, SwampNut said:

 

Is it actually good for that?

 

Dude, really?  You have the google, go to K&N.com and read all about it!

 

 

They definitely flow more, but it usually doesn't matter.  There are some cases where the filter area is pretty small and a higher flowing filter can add real HP even compared to a clean paper filter, but not many.  For most applications it's doing little or nothing since the paper filter can already flow enough to fully feed the engine.  They can save money, but in most cases a paper filter lasts around 60k miles before becoming a measurable restriction.  In super dusty conditions it can really save money on filters (at the cost of engine parts) but has to be serviced religiously to even reasonably protect the engine, and it'll never protect as well as paper no matter what you do to it.  The only way to get one to be about as protective is to allow it to get packed with dust while keeping it wet, but by the time it's filtering almost as well it's much more restrictive than paper.

 

For those who say 'you're the stupid one wasting money on paper filters', lets look at the numbers.  I can get paper for most cars for around $15, K&Ns start around $50.  The K&N will also need a $15 service kit so $65.  The cost will break even around 200k miles assuming the filter and service kit lasts.  During this time the K&N will require much more maintenance time to keep it working decently.  You're also likely to have to repeatedly clean the mass air sensor, idle control valve, and throttle body.  A dirty air sensor will rob power and fuel economy.  I don't see the ROI at all.  And lets not forget that a paper filter can also be washed if you really wanna be frugal.

 

K&N is smart enough to not make filters for HD trucks and industrial equipment where they'd get outed.  If their filters were really as good as they say they are they'd make them for all those guys and really cash in.  The only enthusiast forum I've seen that aggressively attacks K&N is a 7.3 powerstroke forum I'm on.  Every time a new guy joins and says he has one he's told to get rid of it ASAP.  This is a rare group that wants max performance while still caring about longevity.  There are guys on there that have doubled their power and still run paper.

 

On the flip side, I've seen reports on other forums of guys at 300K+ on a gassers running a K&N, but they've all been tinkerers and likely keep them pretty wet which is key with a K&N.

 

I got a Mustang GT convertible for pennies because of a K&N so I do have some love for them.

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I bought a s10 with a k/n filter,

The previous owner must have thought that oiling was, “ spray a can of oil on the filter, in the air box”.

I had a 1/4 in of oil in the bottom of the box.  And a MAF sensor that was too gunked to clean.   

 

OEM paper is my choice

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You fill the air box so it self oils as you drive, kinda like a chain luber; you didn't know this?!?

 

The Mustang I bought was serviced by Jiffy Lube who does K&N service.  Guessing they usually ignore it and might occasionally soak it.  Since they're quick the oil doesn't have much time to dry.  The MAF was pretty gunked up.  The guy took it to three different shops and it only got worse, no power and wouldn't pass smog so he gave up and sold it cheap.  One of the shops adjusted the timing wrong, that's where it got worse.  The guy was sure it was some crazy complex issue since 'nobody' could figure it out and asked me to let him know what it was if I ever figured it out.  A couple hours after I left his place I called him to report that it was cured and smogged.  "Is the power back too"?  I got pulled over for the long smoky burnout leaving the parts store, but no ticket to prove it with.

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12 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

They definitely flow more, but it usually doesn't matter.

 

But that's what I'm asking.  In THEORY they CAN flow more.  In this motorcycle, in the real world, does it, and is there a gain from it?  In the Jeep it's proven to do nothing at all.  And dicking around with soap and oil is not worth the time for $15.

 

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2 hours ago, tomek said:

Vfr1200f oem best internet price 57 $. KN - 59.

 

How 'bout aftermarket standard replacement style?  Guessing a lot less and it'll still filter better.

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