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Power Commander vs TFI Controller, winner is...?


Steve Smith

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Until my last thread posted here, I wasn't aware of the TFI controller unit. Informed input is needed before I plunk down the green backs on one or the other.

For a stock injected XX with a full aftermarket exhaust system, which controller is best performing?

 

 

Steve

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With a Tri-Y four into one exhust, K&N filter and the use of a DynoJet chassis dyno I was able to Achieve 163 rear wheel HP. this was with a Power Commander 3 This was 10-12 years ago.

This bike still runing well with no issues. I added a Speedohealer, droped the primarry sprocket one tooth and she was good for 10sec. flat.........well depending on the humidity.

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9 hours ago, srideaux said:

With a Tri-Y four into one exhust, K&N filter and the use of a DynoJet chassis dyno I was able to Achieve 163 rear wheel HP. this was with a Power Commander 3 This was 10-12 years ago.

This bike still runing well with no issues. I added a Speedohealer, droped the primarry sprocket one tooth and she was good for 10sec. flat.........well depending on the humidity.

"Tri-Y" ? Not familiar with that one. DAMN good dyno and 1/4 mile results!! Impressive!

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Tho tri-Y usually refers to v-8 hot rod headers, the stock XX header, including most aftermarkets, is basically a tri-y.  The 4 head pipes are paired down to 2, then paired again to 1; 3 Ys.  Then they're possibly split to two or remain as one depending on how many mufflers it's running.  A traditional tri-y would probably suck the life outa the bike.  They're generally used when cost or space dictates them, they're not chosen for max performance.

 

You also have to beware that different year bikes make different power and even bikes of the same year make different power.  If all the tolerances stack one way or the other there can be a substantial difference in how they run.  This is one of the reasons that engines that qualify as 'stock' for racing make more power than a truly stock motor makes, you can play with the tolerances.  Sensors can make or rob power, different fuels can make or rob, etc.  Then another big factor to not overlook is the dyno being used, the same bike can make very different numbers on different dynos.  There's also some bikes that get mods and then sold without disclosure; head work, cams, bored, timing advance, etc.

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12 hours ago, srideaux said:

With a Tri-Y four into one exhust, K&N filter and the use of a DynoJet chassis dyno I was able to Achieve 163 rear wheel HP. this was with a Power Commander 3 This was 10-12 years ago.

This bike still runing well with no issues. I added a Speedohealer, droped the primarry sprocket one tooth and she was good for 10sec. flat.........well depending on the humidity.

What was your speed on those 10 flat runs?

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I will throw in my .02 worth.
Back in 2001 when i bought my Bird new with 0.6 miles on the clock, took it straight to a friend in North Miami that does most of the bike set-ups for the track in So Florida. Kevin Blais was a World Superbike Team Kawasaki Technician for a number of years until his wife developed cancer. After her passing he opened Blais Cycle in Miami.
Blais Cycle is the only people that I have trusted to do any work on my Bird to this day.

After breakin at approx 750 miles on the clock, she was put on the Dyno for a full stock baseline run.
The Dyno showed 134.2 hp in completely stock form

replaced stock full exhaust with a full titanium Akcropovic Race system. K&N air filter, Oil/filter change and installed a Power Commander.

After multiple Dyno runs and tweeks on the PC the final run showed 149.9 hp.
All work was performed on the same day in an air conditioned controlled Dyno Room.

Somewhere I still have the Dyno printout for both stock and custom final runs with time and date stamps.

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16 hours ago, tomek said:

No hell, no way stock XX motor would make 163 whp on dynojet Dyno without creatively adjusting  dyno settings. 

 

 

Even with a tri-y exhaust?  That's gotta be worth at least 20hp!

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12 hours ago, blackhawkxx said:

John, did it just pick up peak HP or across most of the board?  Did it pick up much torque?  Just curious.

 

I was 17 years ago!
I will have to dig out the dyno sheets.

I do remember that it was stronger across the board alone with the elimination of the 5000 RPM hesitation that was so common.

I don't remember what the torque numbers were but don't think there was much of a gain there.

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10 hours ago, srideaux said:

Please forgive, I misspoke, it was 153 rear-wheel HP not 163 My bad.!!!

Sounds much more 'normal'.  What exhaust system does it have?

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It's not useful to compare HP from different dynos in different locations.  Too many variables.  My testing was just outside of Vegas in summer.  So 2k feet altitude and 100+ degrees.  Terrible situation for creating power.  A run at 65 degrees and sea level would be an easy gain.

 

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2 hours ago, SwampNut said:

It's not useful to compare HP from different dynos in different locations.  Too many variables.  My testing was just outside of Vegas in summer.  So 2k feet altitude and 100+ degrees.  Terrible situation for creating power.  A run at 65 degrees and sea level would be an easy gain.

 

And to add to this.......You must run a baseline initial run to compare with the final Dyno run to accurately determine net gains.

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3 hours ago, SwampNut said:

It's not useful to compare HP from different dynos in different locations.  Too many variables.  My testing was just outside of Vegas in summer.  So 2k feet altitude and 100+ degrees.  Terrible situation for creating power.  A run at 65 degrees and sea level would be an easy gain.

 

Dynos correct reading to standard conditions, see level and something like 70 f deg.

There is 3 % loss for every 1000 feet of elevation gain so you are looking at 6 % loss. 100 vs 70 is about 5 % loss. It is obvious your readings were corrected to standard conditions.

In case of normally aspirated engines dry desert air helps power, humidity reduces it,  water does not help combustion.   

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1 hour ago, John01XX said:

You must run a baseline initial run to compare with the final Dyno run to accurately determine net gains.

 

IIRC, we did three before and three after.  Then a big long run trying different throttle positions to tune the TFI at different ranges.

 

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5 hours ago, tomek said:

Dynos correct reading to standard conditions, see level and something like 70 f deg.

There is 3 % loss for every 1000 feet of elevation gain so you are looking at 6 % loss. 100 vs 70 is about 5 % loss. It is obvious your readings were corrected to standard conditions.

In case of normally aspirated engines dry desert air helps power, humidity reduces it,  water does not help combustion.   

Dynos correct can as well as they can using whatever programing they have.  If they were perfect there wouldn't be disparities among them.

3%/1,000ft. might be the average loss is, but there's no way it can be the same for every engine.

Dry air helps whether NA or not.  Water can help make power, humidity hurts.

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On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 6:48 PM, SwampNut said:

 

IIRC, we did three before and three after.  Then a big long run trying different throttle positions to tune the TFI at different ranges.

 

 Just purchased a TFI from a member, plus, I have a full Akrapovic system that came with the bike. So Swampnut, if you can lay the best TFI setting info on me  along with me utilizing other info listed in this thread (like a K&N filter), hopefully I can see similar dyno results for my '01. Trailer the bike when finished to a reputable shop (GUHL in Ephrata, PA) in much cooler temps, probably in April some time. Love to see 145-150hp at the wheel. With a bit shorter gearing and practice, low 10s would be most welcome.

 

Steve

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2 hours ago, Steve Smith said:

 Just purchased a TFI from a member, plus, I have a full Akrapovic system that came with the bike. So Swampnut, if you can lay the best TFI setting info on me  along with me utilizing other info listed in this thread (like a K&N filter), hopefully I can see similar dyno results for my '01. Trailer the bike when finished to a reputable shop (GUHL in Ephrata, PA) in much cooler temps, probably in April some time. Love to see 145-150hp at the wheel. With a bit shorter gearing and practice, low 10s would be most welcome.

 

Steve

Steve,

I ran a 10.67 with my 01 Bird at PBIR.
I rode the bike there ran a few passes and rode it back home (50 miles each way) stock gearing

I used to go a few times a year with Adam, Beondwacko, with his 01 Bird.
Adam strapped his front end but with stock gearing ran 10.3's with some regularity.

Adam was serious about his times and I was there to have some fun and try to learn how to launch better, but I was unsuccessful in the end!

I always had poor 60' times.


 

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11 hours ago, SwampNut said:

I have no idea on the settings, that was a long time ago.  The K&N is a good trash can filler, or you can get some sucker to buy it and fuck up his bike, not yours.

207 k miles on K&N. It has failed to fuck my engine. Sucker is one who repeatedly buys Oem air filters.

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