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early ignition rotor into later bike?


ptxyz

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apologies if this has been covered before.

might it be possible to put a '99 or earlier ignition rotor (pulse rotor, #10 in the diagram) into my 2001?

i can't find aftermarket suppliers that still stock this and honda only has the later part# (30291-MAT-E00 = early, 30291-MAT-E01 = late).

i understand the early bikes are @ 12 degrees btdc, the later ones @ 8. i've been trying to get my '01 to feel as snappy as my previous '00 and '97.

right side blackbird.gif

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Pictures I've seen of the two say they're not interchangeable, but don't know for sure.  Have you looked for an aftermarket one?  I recall reading of one that was a fixed advance and another that was adjustable.  A PC should also let you change the timing.  Lastly would be DIY modifying, I've done this on a few vehicles.  Slotting the 'fixed' mounting points so they can be adjusted.  I haven't paid attention to the XX set up to know if that would be possible.

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5 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

 Have you looked for an aftermarket one?  I recall reading of one that was a fixed advance and another that was adjustable.

I have the adjustable one on my 97 but that don't answer his question which I don't know either.

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Just checked MRCycles on their diagrams and they do show a changed p/n for the injected birds but still list a rotor with a completely different number ( 30291-MV9-671 ) for the carbed birds. Anyone have a pic of an early one for show and tell? Most of the carburetted rotors I`ve seen only have 4 lobes for a 4 cyl machine while the injected ones seem to have 10-16 lobes with a gap for cyl 1.

 
 
 
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I looked very deep into this issue many moons ago.  The rotor for carbed Birds is different than the ones for FI Birds, and are not compatible.  Short of modifying your stock rotor like Superhawk said, the only avenue for changing ignition timing on an FI Bird is buying a Power Commander with the ignition mod adapter.  Nothing $600 won't cover.  This money would be better spent on a big bore kit.  IMO

Edited by jon haney
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thanks for chiming in, jon!  if i could find a '99 or '00 rotor, might that work?  my understanding is the timing was 4 degrees retarded after '00.

 

yikes!  that's a spicy meatball!

 

i do see a power commander 2, used on-line.  those have the capability of altering ignition timing, correct?

 

 

Edited by ptxyz
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22 hours ago, ptxyz said:

thanks for chiming in, jon!  if i could find a '99 or '00 rotor, might that work?  my understanding is the timing was 4 degrees retarded after '00.

 

yikes!  that's a spicy meatball!

 

i do see a power commander 2, used on-line.  those have the capability of altering ignition timing, correct?

 

 

Don't know about the different timing, but a 99 or 00 rotor should fit on a 2001.

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54 minutes ago, XXitanium said:

 

How big can these be bored to?

2mm is what is still available for piston kits, but I'm sure you can go 3mm safely.  Problem with 3mm, or bigger, is that you may have to order custom pistons.  Don't want to guess what those cost.  PM Stan (cbrxxquad).  He knows everything.

Edited by jon haney
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6 hours ago, jon haney said:

2mm is what is still available for piston kits, but I'm sure you can go 3mm safely.  Problem with 3mm, or bigger, is that you may have to order custom pistons.  Don't want to guess what those cost.  PM Stan (cbrxxquad).  He knows everything.

 

...longer skirts?

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20 hours ago, blackhawkxx said:

He is either asking if you prefer your skirts past your knees or if the pistons required custom length skirts.:D

LOL.  Although there are standard pistons out there with an 82mm diameter, that diameter would be custom for this engine.  Plus, IIRC the wrist pins are 19mm diameter, which seems oddball.

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There's possibly an off the shelf piston that'll work, just a matter of finding it if it exists.  I discovered that a Toyota 22R piston would likely work for an air cooled VW as a cheap big bore replacement.  Just happened to have both laying around the garage and got curious so I did a quick check.

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I got around to rummaging through the pile.

 

PT, the 97 and 09 are carbureted, and the pulse rotor is pictured on the bottom.  99 and later are injected and the pulse rotor from a 2000 is pictured on the top.  I cannot for the life of me make this picture load in landscape view.

 

20171114_145054.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Superimposed, the central teeth and cutout are matched.  You can see that the fingers do not line up.

 

20171114_145022.jpg

 

All the injected rotors have the same fit.  What source do you have that the '01 and newer have 4 degrees less static timing?

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thanks very much for sharing those pics, very interesting!  so, the carburated bikes have fingers all the way around?  it's interesting that honda lists the later "...-01" part number as the only one now available, even for the '99 & '00 bikes.

 

i've been researching on-line and another forum;

 

http://www.cbrxx.com/engine-airbox-exhaust-fuel-delivery/42913-early-ignition-rotor-into-later-bike.html

 

i seem to recall reading someplace the retarded timing might be a function of the ecu and apply to the lower gears only.

 

i have 2 ignition rotors from e-bay sellers; a box of pieces from a '97 engine teardown (looks like the middle one with fingers missing on the bottom) & another that's supposedly from a '99.  from what i'm hearing the '97 is really a f.i. rotor.  since i haven't yet found anything definitive, i was planning to have a look at mine and if the difference is only slight, swap in the early f.i. rotor.

 

i'll be sure to post my findings although i'm a man with "too many irons in the fire"...

 

 

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The carbed bikes....97 and 98 here in the US...do NOT have teeth all the way around.  FI does.

 

In the fuel injected engines, the knock sensor signals the ECU to retard the timing.   There is no sensor that detects what gear the bike is in other than the neutral safety switch.  The ECU has no way of knowing what gear the bike is in.

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Your link is to your own thread conjecturing about the timing difference. 

 

If you could point to some documentation, that would be great.  There may very well be a difference in the timing, and Honda decided to decrease engine stress by making the more advanced unit unavailble...but I don't remember any official or quasi-official indication that there was a timing difference.  Hmmm...maybe if I looked in the service manual

 

The adjustable pulse rotor produced for the carbed XX also fit the CBR600 F2 and F3, as well as the CBR900.  And I think the pulse rotor from an F4i also fit an XX, but I have no documentation.

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so far only forum posts...

 

sorry, not the best link, here's another that post 17 references the manual (http://www.cbrxx.com/engine-airbox-exhaust-fuel-delivery/22568-ignition-advance-how-can-changed-2.html).

 

here's a page from the manual on the different ignition timing.  thus far, i'm thinking it's due to the differences between the ...E00 & ...E01 part# ignition rotors.

 

blob.thumb.png.5d94886ac939b538304682c59e8415ee.png

 

all this, trying to find the snappiness i'm missing in my '01 that was present in both my old '97 & '00.  even with lower gearing and aftermarket cans, it seems like i really have to try to loft the front on the new bike.

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