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Ok, after 21 one years the old girl has had serious upgrades and has had performed brilliantly. Thinking the original brake hoses should go. Possibly clutch hose as well. Would like a braking improvement over stock. Not really sold on the delink for a performance street machine, so leaning towards retaining the LBS. Have you done the change? Brand? Long term opinion?

HH pads do feel better. No initial hard bite, but progressive force right to the point that the front starts a controlled chirping lockup. Didn't play with stoppies yet since the bitch was on the back.

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My limited experience says they do improve brake feel but never experienced them with LBS.  Some early hoses were real sensitive to flexing at the crimped fittings but my understanding is most or all have switched to fittings that aren't as bad about it.  Being that there's so many hoses on a linked system you might experience more improvement than on a normal system, but of course it'll also be spendier and more work.

 

When I do hose swaps, calipers, slaves, etc. I use zip ties or whatever needed to hold the master partially engaged, this keep it from draining so you have less mess and you don't have to deal with getting air out of it which can be a hassle.  Once everything's hooked up I open the bleeder, unlock the master, and gravity takes care of the bleeding while I keep the reservoir filled.  With LBS it might require pumping, don't know.

Edited by superhawk996
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There is a crap load of lines running throughout the XX, don't have to replace all unless you feel that some of the hard lines have issues.

 

HEL makes a 10 line kit for the XX, its almost $450

clutch line is under $50

 

or go with spiegler and just replace all the rubber lines with stainless braided for less.

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Spiegler worked for me, about 10 years ago, replaced all rubber lines , I am 65 ( old School ) never trusted the LBS so I disabled it, I feel like I have better control over the bike now and yes definitely do the clutch line. after a thorough flush I recommend DOT 5 fluid  I use a commercial vacuum device operated by compressed air. Gravity bleeding takes to long, and can leave air pockets.  After 50 years, the brakes are no place to scrimp.

Best of Luck

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15 hours ago, XXBirdSlapper said:

Thinking the original brake hoses should go. Possibly clutch hose as well. Would like a braking improvement over stock. Not really sold on the delink for a performance street machine, so leaning towards retaining the LBS. Have you done the change? Brand? Long term opinion?

I have two front lines made by Galfer. They have been on there for maybe 6 or more years with no issues.  I jumped over to RevZilla to look up lines and they don't even list our bike anymore.:(  On Galfer's site, they list the full kit that you may find cheaper elsewhere.

http://galferusa.com/product/honda-2000-cbr-1100-xx-super-blackbird-multiple-lines-fk003d323-11

Two seconds on ebay found this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/97-03-CBR1100XX-Galfer-11-Line-Brake-and-Clutch-Line-Kit-Red-D323-11-/371309765191?hash=item5673c96247:g:ORMAAOSwud1XAApZ&vxp=mtr

PS-bleeding brakes after line change is fun, not.

 

Edited by blackhawkxx
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OE brake lines deteriorate internally and Dot 3 draws moisture which create corrosion/oxidation which will accumulate at the the lowest point.  There becomes internal Bypass, the clutch rod not getting full travel, remember these calipers are Aluminum they will corrode. look at the crap that first comes out when you begin to bleed the clutch line.

DOT 3  bad....draws moisture creates problems

DoT  5 Good........synthetic, much higher resistance to heat, does not accumulate moisture. 

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Dot 3 holds water in suspension allowing it to be removed easily with a fluid flush.

 

Dot 5 doesn't hold water in suspension so it can drop to the lowest point and stay there eating away at metal until it gets hot enough to boil at which point you loose braking pressure until it cools back into water to continue working it's magic on the metal.  It's harder to eliminate air with 5, it's more compressible, it has lower lubricity, costs way more, won't play well with residues of 3 or 4, ......I'll stick with Dot 3 or 4.  If someone asked me to put 5 in their vehicle I'd refuse to unless they had a real good reason.

 

As far as gravity bleeding, I've never had an issue with it but also never used Dot5.  I haven't used a pump or helper to bleed brakes in at least 10 years.  I also don't bench bleed master cylinders as of many years, I do it on the car/bike.

 

If 5 was so great I assume some manufacturers would put it in their cars and I don't know of any that do.  The military supposedly has had a Dot5 requirement with their vehicles but I heard they're getting or have gotten away from it because of problems.  Other than being safer to handle I see no upsides to 5.

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+1 to Superhawk,

 

Dot 5 is a bad idea on any bike that doesn't see regular flush and fills of the system. Good stuff performance-wise, boiling point, etc., but it's inability to absorb water is not a plus on your typical street bike, quite the opposite. Putting any water in the system all in one place, possibly the caliper, is a very bad idea. The only way to avoid this with Dot 5 is a strict regimen of fluid replacement.

 

Oh, and if you do decide to go Dot 5, it is incompatible with Dot 3 (or 4), so you'd need to make sure you got every trace of the old fluid out of the system. Good luck with that.

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1 hour ago, superhawk996 said:

Dot 3 holds water in suspension allowing it to be removed easily with a fluid flush.

I always thought the water dropped to the lowest point with dot 3 or 4.  That is why I change it on my street car/truck so the water will not rust the caliper or wheel cylinder.  I never get the fluid hot enough to boil or anything like that in my car or truck.  The bike has so little fluid in it that it don't take much water to affect it. 

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12 minutes ago, blackhawkxx said:

I always thought the water dropped to the lowest point with dot 3 or 4.

 

Nope, Dot 3/4 both absorb water, google "hygroscopic". Any moisture present will drop the overall boiling point of the fluid, but it will not collect in one place. It will with Dot 5

 

 

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I've installed the 11 line Galfer kits on 2 of my XX's. They have great installation instructions, and are well labeled to help the install go well. Plan on spending most of a day by the time you get the brake and clutch systems bled down. 

 

I too like the LBS, and you will notice a big difference on initial bite and less effort required to stop. 

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Redbird....exactly the opposite is true,  just because you read it on the internet does not make it so. spend more time on research

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Randy I agree most people like the LBS, personally I do not, I just feel I have better control in hard braking situations, I have never seen LBS in MotoGT or Superbike  there is a reason for that. Anyway I am glade I caused some conversation.

Good luck to you all 

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1 hour ago, srideaux said:

Redbird....exactly the opposite is true,  just because you read it on the internet does not make it so. spend more time on research

 

 

LOL.


Either you're a troll, or you've been talking about Dot 5.1 this whole time.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_3

 

Quote

Fluids such as DOT 3 are hygroscopic and will absorb water from the atmosphere. This degrades the fluid's performance, and if allowed to accumulate over a period of time, can drastically reduce its boiling point.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_5

 

Quote

 

DOT 5 is a silicone-based brake fluid (contains at least 70% by weight of a diorgano polysiloxane.

Unlike polyethylene glycol based fluids, Dot 5 is hydrophobic. An advantage over other forms of brake fluid is that silicone has a more stable viscosity index over a wider temperature range. Another property is that it does not damage paint.[citation needed]

DOT 5 brake fluid is not compatible with anti-lock brake systems. DOT 5 brake fluid absorbs a small amount of air requiring care when bleeding the system of air.

 

 

Get your shit straight before you talk someone into doing something stupid.

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4 hours ago, srideaux said:

I have never seen LBS in MotoGT or Superbike  there is a reason for that.

I've never seen an average rider on a XX in MotoGT or Superbike dealing with traffic and the surprises that come with street riding, there is a reason that race bikes aren't street bikes and vise versa.  If what's used on the track dictates what should be used on the street we have a fuck ton of mods to do beyond de-linking.  My first Bird was linked and altho the feel kinda bugged me here & there, it was never a true problem.  I don't recall ever locking the rear on the linked one but have on my current de-linked one, tho luckily it hasn't been a problem either.

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I've thought about delinking too mostly for the extra weight but it weighs so much anyway i wouldn't notice the difference :)

Seems to work ok for normal riding and the occasional racing a kid :)

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Forgive me gentleman, I was only sharing my personal experience  and preferences with the LBC and synthetic Brake fluid, I am now 14 years into it with no regrets.

I defer to your Expert opinion.

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3 hours ago, srideaux said:

Forgive me gentleman, I was only sharing my personal experience  and preferences with the LBC and synthetic Brake fluid, I am now 14 years into it with no regrets.

I defer to your Expert opinion.

 

 

First and foremost, I'll apologize for my tone last night. I was up past my bedtime against my will and reacted poorly to what I felt was a condescending tone to your post telling me to "spend more time on research" and the "everything you read on the internet" comment. I'm supposed to be one of the grownups in the room so I should probably not be so quick to wade into these little purse swinging matches.

 

Secondly, I've never claimed to be an expert and none of what I've posted has been my opinion. What I've posted are facts and I can post links all day to reputable sources to prove it.

 

quick google search-

http://www.advancepetro.com/differentbrakefluid.htm

 

http://techtalk.mpbrakes.com/brake-fluid/can-i-use-dot-5

 

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/brake-fluid

 

https://www.summitracing.com/expertadviceandnews/professoroverdrive/answer/414

 

 

I'm also not some random dude who's good at using google and arguing on the internet. I did my homework on this subject about a decade ago when I briefly considered switching one of my track bikes over to Dot 5. That idea got tossed pretty quick and I ended up going with Motul RFB 660, flushed it twice a year. I think I still have an unopened bottle of that stuff kicking around my garage somewhere, it's probably garbage.

 

 

Now, you might be asking yourself why I'm being such an asshole about this. The reason is this is a searchable technical/reference forum and the the preference is to not have bad or questionable advice laying around unchallenged for someone to stumble across weeks, months or years from now. Suggesting someone swap over to Dot 5 (not Dot 5.1, not "synthetic", but silicone based brake fluid, which is what Dot 5 is) without covering the rather large pitfalls is bad advice, and that is my opinion.

 

I've provided factual basis for that opinion. If your opinion differs, I welcome any debate on the subject. But if your argument is going to be limited to unsupported and smarmy "you're wrong, educate yourself" comments, you won't hear any more from me, I've said my piece. 

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To be honest, I haven't even looked at a can of Brake Fluid in 5-7 years, I will read up on the Motul RBF 660.......not to old to learn.

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3 hours ago, blackhawkxx said:

Did you notice any difference with this fluid on your track bike?

 

I honestly couldn't say, as the fluid swap was in conjunction with an upgrade to monoblock calipers and Vesrah RJL pads. I can say that those brakes were a thing of beauty once I had them set up...one finger stoppies and pretty much zero fade. Radial Brembo master probably helped a little, too.

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