NoOne65 Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 So I am having issues where I bleed my back brakes and after a day they pretty much have to be pumped several time to firm up. I have got any leaks and when i apply mild to mid pressure to the front brakes the secondary master cylinder "chatters" back and forth (my '97 never did this). Pads are new galfer black and discs are brand new as well. Any advice on how to solve this issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 My guess is that you still have air trapped in the system. Rear brakes can be a pain with this. I never bleed...I always "flush" the system. Try pumping and bleeding over and over and see if more air bubbles come out. I know there's two nipples on the rear. One is for the circuit that runs to the "master" cylinder on the left caliper. That one takes longer to bleed. I had a similar problem, and I was sure I flushed the system properly, but the rear was always spongy until the 2nd or 3rd press. Turned out to be an air bubble in the line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 initially 2 weeks ago was exactly that, flushe and no air came out. I am drawing a blank on how to solve the issue but something tells me the secondary cylinder has something to do with it. I used zip ties to tie the secondary cylinder in the up position to bleed...should I pump it like you do with the lever/pedal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Krypt Keeper Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) If you dont see fluid dripping anywhere then you got air trapped.. look under your seat, probably take off tail section to make it easier as well. Your resivour is there and you will see a hose going into the master cylinder. Air can get trapped at the top hose easily.. unbolt it and lay or turn it to make the trapped air move down the system. Recommend using the tubing and bottle method on the bleeder screw to assist. Can also use a ziptie on front left to activate the LBS system to direct fluid towards the back when applying the front brake lever as well. (Nevermind see your reply now) pump lever and with fluid in bottle it will prevent air getting sucked back in.. will just have to keep fluid going into system till trapped air is removed. Edited February 6, 2017 by The Krypt Keeper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 I suppose you can do that. The lesson I learned is that some air bubbles don't become obvious until they have a chance to "coalesce" in one spot. IIRC, prior flush had a moment where the fluid in the rear reservoir got too low. I thought I caught it in time, but I guess I didn't. If you do nothing but just flush, flush, flush, the errant bubble would eventually come out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 so any idea why the secondary MC chatters back and forth upon braking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Krypt Keeper Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Never had that happen so cant really say. Could possibly just be enough fluid to activate it and not enough to hold it. Recently did a brake flush on my XX after noticing a slight mushy feel. Normally do it every couple years. I must have pumped a quart of fluid through the entire system. Then like magic it burped out a string of small bubbles. It can be a pain sometimes. Thought about getting a mighty vac to help speed things up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 17 minutes ago, NoOne65 said: so any idea why the secondary MC chatters back and forth upon braking? I'm not sure what "back and forth" brake chatter sounds like. In your case, I'd fix the mushy brake issue first and see if the other problem resolves itself. At least then, you know you're dealing with a separate issue. Krypt's guess is probably the case...not enough pressure to hold the pad against the disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 IIRC, years ago there was a recall on the secondary MC on earlier GL1800s (GoldWings) that used the same/similar 2nd MC as the XX (the brake systems on both models are almost identical). In talking with the tech who worked on my GW, he remarked how more often than not, the issue wasn't actually a failure of the 2nd MC but trapped air that was extremely frustrating to get out (following the shop manual method); since it was a mandatory recall he replaced the 2nd MCs anyway. He used a vacuum pump & powered flush combo (a cobbled together device he made himself) to bleed GWs and XXs. You can bleed the system per the manual, but expect to do it repeatedly because minuscule air bubbles will deliberately hide in any nook & cranny they can find--damned atmospheric gremlins! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) delete Edited February 6, 2017 by NoOne65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aunt Zero said: I'm not sure what "back and forth" brake chatter sounds like. In your case, I'd fix the mushy brake issue first and see if the other problem resolves itself. At least then, you know you're dealing with a separate issue. Krypt's guess is probably the case...not enough pressure to hold the pad against the disc. when the cylinder actuates and then releases and repeat...makes a chatter sound unless there is firm pressure on the lever...sounds like something that would happen if the rotor was warped Edited February 6, 2017 by NoOne65 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Or if the rear tire isn't straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted February 6, 2017 Author Share Posted February 6, 2017 secondary master cylinder is on the front...lol :poke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 29 minutes ago, NoOne65 said: secondary master cylinder is on the front...lol :poke That's what I'd call it...it acts as a master cylinder...although it's not quite one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Krypt Keeper Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 Proportion control is the technical term. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runninn Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 The problems you are having are similar to my old troubles.... went to the JAWS delink system. After 2 years I am still glad I did.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC Randy Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) You may try rebuilding your secondary master cylinder. It's been awhile, but I could bleed my 99 XX and have a firm rear pedal, and after a couple of days of comuting it would start going soft and require a few pumps to get firm at the top of the rear brake pedal. I went through an insane amount of brake fluid bleeding the brakes many times, thinking I had air trapped somewhere. Installed a kit in the secondary master and it solved the problem. Edited February 8, 2017 by RC Randy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Cecome's rear brake was mushy, I bled it several times alternating between the foot pedal and pumping the master on the fork. I never saw air come out, hard to watch when solo bleeding back & forth, it cured the problem. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffguyF4i Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 The chattering could be a piston on the caliper not engaging smoothly. Are the brakes grabby? Might be time to pull apart brake calipers and see. Get or borrow a vac bleeding system. They are great. You pull the fluid and air through the system. Make sure to refill frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 On 2/8/2017 at 6:05 PM, TuffguyF4i said: The chattering could be a piston on the caliper not engaging smoothly. Are the brakes grabby? Might be time to pull apart brake calipers and see. Get or borrow a vac bleeding system. They are great. You pull the fluid and air through the system. Make sure to refill frequently. I am going to rebuilt a spare system that I removed from my 97. Is there a down and dirty way to get the pistons out when they are no longer connected to the bike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Compressed air. They can pop pretty violently so put a wood block or something in there so they don't fly out. You can use a manual pump or one of those cigarette lighter plug ins and it'll probably be more controlled, but I'd still use a block to be on the safe side. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) On 2/6/2017 at 11:16 AM, NoOne65 said: initially 2 weeks ago was exactly that, flushe and no air came out. I am drawing a blank on how to solve the issue but something tells me the secondary cylinder has something to do with it. I used zip ties to tie the secondary cylinder in the up position to bleed...should I pump it like you do with the lever/pedal? I would, but I have never had to bleed the stock system. I de-linked mine as soon as I needed to change the fluid. Twice! IMO, linked brakes for a bike are stupid. Edited February 10, 2017 by jon haney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffguyF4i Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 5 hours ago, superhawk996 said: Compressed air. They can pop pretty violently so put a wood block or something in there so they don't fly out. You can use a manual pump or one of those cigarette lighter plug ins and it'll probably be more controlled, but I'd still use a block to be on the safe side. If you use compressed air..just wear goggles. You do not want brake fluid in your eye. It will screw you up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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