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Dead cylinder


Furbird

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So the bird is only running on three currently (99 model.)  Diag was pretty easy, as it was cool this morning, so I warmed the bike up for about two minutes, pulled the top lid off the air cleaner, and opened the throttle bodies.  Had little wisps of condensation coming out of three of the four cylinders.  The one closest to the throttle had nothing (I don't know if that's 1 or 4 but we're going to call it 4 until somebody corrects me.)  I had a new set of plugs and another set of coils/wires in the shop, so I replaced that plug and the coil for 1-4.  Still there.  Cranked the bike back up, and while it was running, unplugged the #4 fuel injector.  Bike shut down after about two seconds and the FI light came on, so I am assuming it has the ability to read the loss of feedback or resistance from the injector, which tells me it's not a wiring problem.  So, at this point I'm only left with two options.  Complete loss of compression on 4 (highly unlikely as I put a bore scope in there and the piston is at least intact and I don't hear anything that sounds like something disastrous happened internally) or the injector is not physically pumping any fuel in.  Anybody else agree with that diagnosis?  Any reliable source for a replacement injector?  Anybody know a redneck way to test the injectors to make sure they are working correctly?  And just for giggles, what about testing that coil?  It would be a heck of a fluke to have two coils that both have the exact same cylinder bad but figured I'd ask just so I can make sure.

Edited by Furbird
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Switch the #4 with another injector.And yes right side is #4.As for the coils that would be rare,did you use the same cap? Those caps also tend to last forever but just trying to think all possibilities.

If it turns out to be the injector they are exactly the same as Busa's and some GSXR's.

I had mine flow tested by a friend who owns a shop,17 years old and 64k kms and they were fine.My mistake was in not getting them back fast enough since the solution they clean them with will plug the little bastards to their death if left for a few weeks.Got a used set,all good.

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Swap the injector with one from another cylinder. If the problem doesn't move, its not the injector.
Swap the plug with one in another cylinder. If the problem doesn't move, its not the plug.

Swap the spark plug cap with another, making sure the wire is clean and tight. Yeah, u know the next line...

If all else fails, do a leak down test. Air escaping will direct you to the problem if mechanical.

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I had a set of used factory coils I picked up from somebody on here a few years ago.  It was coils with wires.  I'm going to pull it back down again and verify it's got spark.  I'm also going to pull the fuel rail off the Furbird since I don't race it anymore and use an injector off of that.  Thank God that bike already has the tank and airbox off of it because it's a messy, time consuming, and paint-scratching job.

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Is the cylinder dead under power or only at idle?  If only at idle check to make sure the fuel pressure regulator isn't leaking fuel into the vacuum line.

 

Put a screwdriver tip on the injector and the handle to your ear, you should be able to hear it clicking.  Not a guarantee it's injecting, but a quick way to know it's dead if it's silent.  Compression loss could be valves, not just piston.  I got a motor with burnt valves, they were left too tight by a mechanic.

 

It seems very odd that disconnecting an injector from a dead cylinder shut the motor off.  Maybe the computer is wired to do that, odd.

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OK, went all in on this today, and nobody is going to believe me, but I'm going to tell you anyway.  So, fuel+air+spark+compression=runs.

Pulled two plugs and checked fire, both coils are firing.  Spark=check

 

Pushed my hand down on each individual throttle body and turned the motor over.  Every cylinder tried to suck my palm in.  Compression (redneck version)=check

 

Air=duh

 

So, one by one, I pulled all four injectors off of the Furbird to put on the street bike on cylinder 4.  No change, still no fuel to cylinder 4.  Checked ground on the black wire, ground is good.  Pulled the computer and checked continuity from #4 injector plug at the connector to the ECM, got continuity.  So it's not a wiring problem.  Now we're down to either a bad ECM, or all four of the injectors on Furbird are bad (statistically impossible?)  So just for shits and giggles I swapped cylinder 4 (non-working) injector with cylinder 3 (working) injector.

Mother fucker moved to cylinder 3.

So that means EVERY SINGLE INJECTOR on the Furbird is no good!  What the actual fuck.

So, now I guess I need 5 injectors!

I'm going to build a bench injector tester design that I found on youtube and energize these apparently stuck injectors off of Furbird and tap them to see if I can get them to free up.  I'm guessing they're gummed up (bike has been parked for a long time) but I emptied the tank and drained the rail before I mothballed it, so I'm guessing maybe some residual Obama gas was in the injector itself and gummed it up?  I believe I may have an extra set of throttle bodies over at my parents house in the garage, but I'm not too confident they won't be fubared either.

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That's what you get for letting a Bird sit for two years.  I sold my Street Bird after I got the Triumph, because I only rode it 150 miles in 15 months.  She deserved better than that.

I recommend leaving fuel in it, with a good fuel preservative.  Then take it to the track for a test & tune at least once a year.  Twice would be better.  This will circulate the fuel and allow you to renew the preservative.  Use non-ethanol fuel only!

Edited by jon haney
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5 hours ago, jon haney said:

That's what you get for letting a Bird sit for two years.  I sold my Street Bird after I got the Triumph, because I only rode it 150 miles in 15 months.  She deserved better than that.

I recommend leaving fuel in it, with a good fuel preservative.  Then take it to the track for a test & tune at least once a year.  Twice would be better.  This will circulate the fuel and allow you to renew the preservative.  Use non-ethanol fuel only!


I never intended to just flat out give up racing, but when the track I used to race at quit having a bike program, then bought ANOTHER track and put all their programs there (still no bikes) yadda yadda, time flies, life gets in the way.  There were no stations here that sold E-free fuel when I parked it, which is why I pulled the tank and pump, drained it, and drained the lines and rail.

Can you soak injectors in something to free them up?

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13 minutes ago, Furbird said:


Can you soak injectors in something to free them up?

Carb cleaner, put them in a jar or can and spray a bunch in there and cap it.  Agitate it from time to time.  And if you can pull the screens out it would be a good idea so you can back-flush them, if not just spray them really well.  If you rig the injectors up to back flush with the carb spray it might help too.

 

If the dead ones click they're probably cleanable and good, if they don't they might be done.

 

The ethanol probably isn't the cause of them getting stuck, the mistake was draining the fuel but not completely emptying the rails and injectors.  Had the system remained full or completely emptied and dry they'd probably be fine.  When a fuel system is emptied some soft parts harden so check the hoses, gaskets, etc. and keep an eye out for leaks for a while after you get it running again.  If nothing leaks somewhat soon you're probably fine, some early leaks will self-heal after a bit of soak time.

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2 hours ago, partsman said:

Can't soak them.They may be able to be cleaned.This is the machine used for car and bike injectors my buddy has,cleans them then flow tests them.

 

They can and I have.  Unless the CBR injectors have something about them that would be damaged by soaking, that I don't know.

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Well, they're already screwed, so it's not going to hurt to try and soak one and see if it frees up.  I've already got to source at least one at this point, so might as well try to unbreak the broken one since otherwise it's going into File 13.

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21 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

They can and I have.  Unless the CBR injectors have something about them that would be damaged by soaking, that I don't know.

I tried when mine were plugged,then 2 different bike mechanics told me I can't,electronic injection and  they only open when told to basically.But hey man I'm all for finding a way.I only soaked the bottom half below the connector.

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They sell rebuild kits for the Busa injectors (which are identical but flow at a different rate) so they have to be repairable.  Amazingly, the injectors for a 2000 Honda CRV are also identical (and about 1/4 the cost of a Blackbird injector) but I can't find the flow numbers on them.

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3 hours ago, partsman said:

I tried when mine were plugged,then 2 different bike mechanics told me I can't,electronic injection and  they only open when told to basically.But hey man I'm all for finding a way.I only soaked the bottom half below the connector.

Fuckin mechanics...but they're kinda right.  You can activate them with a battery and pair of wires with alligator clips.  It's just an electric valve kinda like a lawn sprinkler.  You can rig a can of carb cleaner to a hose to the injector then open the injector with electricity to let the fluid flow.  You can use a 12v battery but don't hold it powered, just short spurts.  A 9v battery would be safer so you pretty much can't overheat the coils.  Realistically it would probably take some effort to fry one on a bench, but better safe than sorry.  So you could soak them in a can or bottle, activate & spray, soak,....as needed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I found my extra set of throttle bodies from my folks house.  In total, I went through 7 injectors between the Furbird and the spare set to find one that worked.  That one was still not working 100% until I rode the bike about 10 miles and was able to get some good non-ethanol fuel through it and got the bike good and warm.  All good now.

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