IcePrick Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I'm going to start collecting the stuff for the ZXXX upgrade this week. I've scoured the posts on it, and have a few questions: 1. Any year ZX front end? 2. Are the ZX calipers preferable, or are there others that are better without major modding? 2a. Use the ZX master cylinder or keep the Honda? 3. What was the final result on the top bearing - make an adapter, or did there turn out to be a useable bearing? 4. Stan, you used the XX swingarm at first, enlarging the holes for the axle. What made you change to the ZX? 5. Does the additional 2" of ZX swingarm have a large impact on the handling? If I use the ZX arm, do I use the XX pivot bolt, make bushings for it? 6. If I use the ZX Swingarm, I'd like to use my current Ohlins shock - can someone speculate what would have to be done to make that work? I've been looking on eBay and maybe now is a bad time, but it looks like ~$400 for forks with the triple, $200+ for mc and front calipers, front wheel with no rotors $200, rear wheel with nothing ~$250, $180 for a swingarm, and $60 for a rear brake/master. Does anybody have a source they have used that is cheaper and reliable? Better yet, if someone has some spares/extras they'd part with - I'm in the market! I'd like to be around $1000 or less, but with all the talk of $100 bearings and custom-machined bushings, I'm concerned that it'll sit half-finished for a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Added what I can in Red... I'm going to start collecting the stuff for the ZXXX upgrade this week. I've scoured the posts on it, and have a few questions: 1. Any year ZX front end? 2. Are the ZX calipers preferable, or are there others that are better without major modding? 2a. Use the ZX master cylinder or keep the Honda? You Need the ZX radial masters. 3. What was the final result on the top bearing - make an adapter, or did there turn out to be a useable bearing? 4. Stan, you used the XX swingarm at first, enlarging the holes for the axle. What made you change to the ZX? 5. Does the additional 2" of ZX swingarm have a large impact on the handling? Have you ever driven an Extended Cab dually truck... if you have compare that to a Regular cab of the same truck. The relativity is about the same, There's definable a noticeable difference, but unless you're peg grinding now, you're not going to need to worry about it. If I use the ZX arm, do I use the XX pivot bolt, make bushings for it? 6. If I use the ZX Swingarm, I'd like to use my current Ohlins shock - can someone speculate what would have to be done to make that work? I've been looking on eBay and maybe now is a bad time, but it looks like ~$400 for forks with the triple, $200+ for mc and front calipers, front wheel with no rotors $200, rear wheel with nothing ~$250, $180 for a swingarm, and $60 for a rear brake/master. Does anybody have a source they have used that is cheaper and reliable? Better yet, if someone has some spares/extras they'd part with - I'm in the market! I'd like to be around $1000 or less, but with all the talk of $100 bearings and custom-machined bushings, I'm concerned that it'll sit half-finished for a year. Good Luck with that $1K figure.... I spent that on Forks and Wheels., but take your time, wait for the right deals and... you might get lucky. All totaled my Fork/Wheel build cost me about $1,700. and it was the best mod I ever did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thanks for the help. Knowing that the mod makes that much of a difference, I'm okay with spending more than I expected. I think there was a time that more of that stuff could be had for cheap, but it may be gone. Maybe wait until spring and the squids start crashing them by the dozen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Knowing that the Mod makes that much of a difference..... um is an understatement if you have not ridden a bike that has had it done. I used to think it couldn't make that much of a difference... HA! I used to think I was good at compensating with what I had... which I did... but why ? I know better now.... My project last fall... (if you didn't already read it) http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry862392 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexxus Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thanks for the help. Knowing that the mod makes that much of a difference, I'm okay with spending more than I expected. I think there was a time that more of that stuff could be had for cheap, but it may be gone. Maybe wait until spring and the squids start crashing them by the dozen again. the zx14 swingarm bolts right up i used the xx bolts. i have a 07 front end..don't know if the front end after 2010 changed One thing about the front fender. its wide and blocks the air to the radiator and engine with those fins on the sides. they send the air right over the side fairings. check with stan on a bracket for the shock, but i have the zx shock and a bracket made for it by stan. cant use your shock, sale it to get money for parts, or a ohlins for the zx and have the bracket made. like eric said...take your time gathering your parts. i was xtremely lucky to come in just under a grand doing just that. i would have done even better if the $%@^% f n bearings wasn't 200. keep a eye out on the zx14 board for the company that buys them and sell the parts bcoz they make those 3 wheelers using the engine. i got both my wheels 1 mile for 225 with rear sprocket hub and brake rotor. front end complete minus fender for 410. swingarm and shock 60 front rotors 50 front fender 30...so you see there are deals out there take your time.. but there was also some modification work stan did for me to mod some parts but for the most part 1150 maybe my cost total. My build was fun i didn't post pic's but have spenty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 good answers Mike, I have been so busy lately I can't get on anymore. I thought that that last guy had found some bearings for the top that were a lot cheaper? posted links too. I might get time to make that adapter but, don't look to good from here. Best look up the link and see if he was right, for now. Sorry, but you will do fine with all the links and others. Spend your time looking for parts and prices, be patient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Almost all of my stuff came off the same '08 that the T-Rex company didn't need. I used a C14 monoshock instead, but I may have to have it resprung because it's too stiff. The dogbones need to be shorter than anything you can buy -- they're even shorter than using the adjustable ones from Brock Davidson tightened as short as they'll go. In my opinion, the non-thrust bearing at the top of the neck is an insufficient solution. I found it difficult to gauge how tight the steering head should be, and I clearly estimated wrong because I already have a notched lower steering head bearing. I'm probably going to take Stan's dimensions for the upper bearing adapter and have one manufactured since he doesn't have the time. I didn't use the stock ZX top triple clamp or bars, although they'll work. I used the LSL ZX kit with XX bar blocks (the ZX ones pulled back too far and touched the tank). The ignition key assembly is problematic for me, but it seems to work with the stock top triple fairly well. The chain is really long and finding the right number of teeth for a ZX sprocket took some extra effort. I'm still not convinced that a chain tensioner might not be a bad idea. The ZX steering dampers won't work due to the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Knowing that the Mod makes that much of a difference..... um is an understatement if you have not ridden a bike that has had it done. I used to think it couldn't make that much of a difference... HA! I used to think I was good at compensating with what I had... which I did... but why ? I know better now.... My project last fall... (if you didn't already read it) http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry862392 Ahhh... thanks. My search didn't turn that one up. Lots of good info there. I now have to assess options on the wheels... Thanks, everyone, for the empirical research! *edit* Oh, boy... here we go. Started buying parts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Finally an evening that finds me coherent enough after work to use a keyboard. Here's my 2 cents, keeping in mind that I haven't modded the rear end. For pics and details on the top bearing refer to my build thread here . . . As far as I know, any 1st gen ZX front end will work. The 2012 might work too, you'd have to check the ZX community and see if the basic dimensions of the main parts have changed. The stock XX master cyl is inadequate, but you don't necessarily need to use the ZX-14 front brakes either. The great thing about radial brakes is that you can use any calipers with the same mounting bolt spacing, which is shared by all Japanese bikes as far as I know. Different rotor sizes can be accommodated by putting a spacer between the caliper and the mount on the fork leg -- you can buy the spacers online or make your own. People have even used a stack of washers; a little ghetto even for me but you don't need anything fancy here. When I was gathering parts, ZX-14 brakes were rare and expensive, but last-gen CBR1000RR calipers were cheap and plentiful. I got the calipers and master cylinder for around $70 and made the required 5mm spacers from a bar of scrap aluminum. If I was going to spend $200 on used ZX-14 calipers . . . I'd probably find the extra hundred bucks or so it would take to get a pair of used Brembos. The downside of using non-ZX brake hardware is that the brake lines will be too short -- that's why we're using the ZX parts in the first place, because we need forks that are longer than normal sportbike bits. Good excuse to install some custom SS lines; I got a 5 line kit from apexbrakes.com for around $120 shipped: separate front lines, clutch line, and 2 lines to de-link the rear. That last bit won't matter to you if you're replacing the rear end as well. Another thing to keep in mind is that the banjo bolt on a radial master is not oriented like the one on a stock XX front master cylinder, and may interfere with your throttle cables where they enter (or exit, I suppose) the switch housing. I was able to get clearance by leaving some space between the master cylinder and switch pod, but a proper fix will require either a different switch housing with the cables oriented differently, or a different master cylinder. Bearings: the ZX bottom bearing will work. I found a sealed tapered roller for the bottom, then picked the wrong number from my cross-reference list and ordered a stock XX sized bearing by mistake. When I discovered my mistake I lowered my standards and ordered an All Balls ZX-14 set just because I was out of patience and it was the simplest, quickest option. Stock ZX upper and lower steering head bearings are the same so now I have an extra lower bearing. The ZX roller bearing is something like 3mm thinner than the Honda lower bearing (and thinner than the stock ZX ball bearing as well); on the VFR forums it seems like standard practice to use a 3mm spacer here but I found it unnecessary as the shape of the bottom of the ZX-14 stem where it joins the lower triple allows it to ride up that 3 mm farther without the triple hitting the bottom of the steering head. Top bearing . . . The 47mm x whatever bearing is cheap and easy to find, no worries about 2 bearings @ a hundred bucks a pop. In fact, you don't even need 2 bearings. The actual machined surface the outer race will be seated in is only as tall as one of those thin-section bearings, above that it widens out by about 1mm so the 2nd bearing is just acting as a spacer. It's a very nice spacer, being exactly the right diameter to fit snugly on the steering stem, but it's not actually contacting the inside of the steering head. 2 bearings will come just about exactly even with the top of the steering head. You'll need an additional spacer of some sort to make up for the extra ZX stem length, and if you're going to use a tapered roller on the bottom make sure you install that before you measure for your spacer. I did mine with the stock ZX ball bearing still installed and then found my spacer was suddenly 3mm too short after I installed the tapered roller. The big issue with the non-standard top bearing is preload, as Skull mentioned. Well, to me the issue isn't precisely preload, it's the fact that a radial ball bearing, especially a thin one, cannot take much force in the wrong direction (ie, along the stem). As Stan mentioned in my thread you don't have to worry about that in normal circumstances because if you look at the way the steering head works, there's no way for forces from below to be transferred to that top bearing. The front suspension can only put an axial load on the top bearing under rebound (or when the front wheel is off the ground). Other than that, the top bearing is only there to center the stem which involves radial loads like it's designed for. Pre-load shouldn't be an issue, in that the required preload is only a few lb-ft and won't harm the bearing (fingers crossed). But before you can preload you have to seat the bearings, and the force required there is potentially enough to deform or destroy that skinny little upper bearing if you're not careful. If you had thrust bearings top and bottom you could just torque the adjuster nut, back it off, preload, and you're done. But with this setup remember that your adjuster nut and spacer are only contacting the inner race of that skinny radial bearing, which is unsupported in that direction. Put 46 lb-ft (or whatever the Kawi manual calls for) on the adjuster and you'll press the inner race right out of the bearing, or at least distort the cage. To seat the bearings you have to transfer the force from the adjuster nut to the outer race of the top bearing, so you're pushing the outer race into its seat instead of pushing on the unsupported inner race. If you look at a thrust bearing, the design of it does exactly that -- transfer axial load from the inner race to the outer. Since my spacer was conveniently shaped I just flipped it upside down with the narrow part against the nut and the wide part on the top bearing's outer race. Failing that, you could just put a stack of really heavy duty washers or chunk of pipe in place of the spacer while you apply the seating torque. Once the bearings are seated preload can be done the old-fashioned way, by feel (which is how most people do it anyway, not many people use a spring scale setup to measure the torque, and people who check such things say the preload on brand new bikes is often fucked up anyway). I tightened a little bit, yanked on the forks like a frenzied ape, tightened a teeny bit more until I couldn't hear or feel any play. I was only concerned with eliminating play in the stem, not with the effort required to turn the bars like a lot of writeups mention. With the stem torqued to where I couldn't hear any clicking no matter how hard I pulled on the forks, the bars required a great deal of effort of turn, but the steering did not feel heavy at all when actually riding. If I'd gone by the "bars should go to opposite lock with a tap" type criteria I think there would have been a ton of slop in the bearings. Remember that a tapered roller will have a heavier feel than the stock thrust bearing, and a sealed bearing more friction than unsealed so don't be alarmed if the bars end up being hard to turn at this point. I tried with single and double top bearings, and 2 bearings definitely required more force to turn the bars when preloaded to the "no-clicky" point. I did end up using 2 top bearings because I didn't feel like making yet another spacer, and despite the extra friction being apparent with bare forks and the front end off the ground, it wasn't noticeable on the road or even wheeling the bike around the garage. So again, I'll stress that IMHO you just need to worry about dialing the play out of the stem when you're preloading. FWIW, the range from bars moving freely, lots of free play --> bars getting stiff, stem still clicking when pulling on forks --> bars feeling quite stiff but no audible play was all in a small fraction of a turn of the adjuster. Parts prices . . . shipping to Canada is a bitch on heavy and/or bulky items, shouldn't be a problem for you. When I was sourcing parts I found a few complete front fork setups with the triples, bars, controls, calipers and master cylinders for around $400, but shipping here was either prohibitive or not available so for an extra $200 or so I got brand new forks from a bike that was an engine donor for some other project. The sweetness of the deals you can find are directly proportional to your patience and consistency when searching As always, keep an eye on the classifieds of any ZX-14 or general Kawi forums. I think I paid around $200 + shipping for a front wheel with rotors. There are lots of brake and suspension swaps within the Kawi community, if you can't find a decent deal on a wheel with rotors you might be able to find other late-model Kawi rotors that will fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted February 2, 2012 Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 Whoa. Invaluable info there. Major thanks! *edit* Looks like my path will be ZX14 front end and ZX10 wheels. I want to keep my Ohlins shock and current chain/swingarm length, and it saves some weight and money to boot. I found the wheel adapter kits on one of the ZX forums (I'll be needing the front only), and will have to have the rear caliper mount fabbed. Other than the rear caliper, ignition switch, steering stops, brake lines, and bearing issues, it looks like almost a drop-in. What am I forgetting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Other than the rear caliper, ignition switch, steering stops, brake lines, and bearing issues, it looks like almost a drop-in. What am I forgetting? Money, Time, ..and countless other little things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Excellent! Time I have plenty of; money and countless other things coming soon. Got the plastic off, washed everything, and got the front end off. This week I'll find a ZX14 front end, and start untangling the XX brakes. There has to be 10 pounds of complexity to unload there. Any tips on removing the ignition switch from the top triple? I'm guessing the two mounting bolts are in there with some pretty sturdy Locktite. I have the tamper-resistant screws out and the harness removed, but the lock itself is in there firmly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Can't help you there, I just unplugged the connector and removed the 2 bolts holding the ignition assembly to the triple, I didn't touch any tamper resistant torx bolt or do any further dismantling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Can't imagine what would be holding it in place,,,tap it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 Yellow Locktite. Some bravery with an expendable allen wrench and they broke loose. 2/8/12 update: Loaded ZX10R wheels with polished edges arrived last night. Looks like I can get around $100 on eBay for the 300mm rotors I'm going to take off them. Ordered a set of new (take-offs) ZX14 forks w/triples, stem, axle, calipers, rotors, lines, and master. I know a guy with an adapter kit for the ZX10-14 wheel swap, complete with ZX10 rear caliper. Convincing him to sell it to me cheap is the tricky part. I know there's a bracket out there for the ZX10-14 front fender swap, but I can't find it. For the $75 I saw it going for, I'll probably look at fabbing it myself. I'll order the DanMoto clip-ons and a ZX12 sprocket when it gets closer to being together. Is anyone interested in collaborating on an instructional thread, complete with parts and sources (as well as alternative forks/wheels) while I'm doing this? It would allow for me to take pics of anything that needs to be filled in visually while I'm in the process. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Bracket? Adapter? For what? Just order the parts you don't have from PartsFish or wherever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted February 9, 2012 Author Share Posted February 9, 2012 Bracket? Adapter? For what? Just order the parts you don't have from PartsFish or wherever. I'm using the XX swingarm and the ZX10 rear caliper. If I read EVLXX's build thread correctly, the XX caliper won't work. He used the ZX10 caliper, and needed to craft the XX's hanger mount point to the ZX10's. And you need a non-factory bracket to mate the ZX10 fender to the 14 forks - some say the 14 fender misdirects airflow, and I don't like the looks of it anyways. Is there a better solution? Never too late to change... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I don't think the ZX-14 fender affects airflow too much, the XX fender obstructs the rad just about as much. Most of the airflow through the rad comes from lower down, deflected off the center section of the lower cowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 FWIW, the reason those fender conversion brackets even exist is because a lot of 14 guys were running the 10 fender to increase airflow over the rad and keep temps down. You will most likely run cooler with the smaller fender, with the obvious tradeoff in aero efficiency. So there goes your 200mph goal, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm using the XX swingarm and the ZX10 rear caliper. If I read EVLXX's build thread correctly, the XX caliper won't work. He used the ZX10 caliper, and needed to craft the XX's hanger mount point to the ZX10's. Correct... and we used the Mill to trim/recess the XX slide to weld on to the ZX bracket to maintian proper alignments of the Sprocket/wheel/swingarm. We also had to use a big fat spacer.... which you could make from the XX bracket after you cut the slide off of it. When you get closer to the build... or if I have some down time sooner than that... I'll take some more pictures and measurements for you. So you know what you need to aim for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm using the XX swingarm and the ZX10 rear caliper. If I read EVLXX's build thread correctly, the XX caliper won't work. He used the ZX10 caliper, and needed to craft the XX's hanger mount point to the ZX10's. Correct... and we used the Mill to trim/recess the XX slide to weld on to the ZX bracket to maintian proper alignments of the Sprocket/wheel/swingarm. We also had to use a big fat spacer.... which you could make from the XX bracket after you cut the slide off of it. When you get closer to the build... or if I have some down time sooner than that... I'll take some more pictures and measurements for you. So you know what you need to aim for. That would be a HUGE help - many thanks for the offer! Update: Ordered the ZX10 wheel conversion kit and the caliper this morning. Still need front fender, rear wheel spacer (as noted above), bearings (though I have a line on the bottom tapers), some cutting and welding, and no doubt a lengthy list of stuff I don't know about yet. But the big chunks have been procured! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Bracket? Adapter? For what? Just order the parts you don't have from PartsFish or wherever. I'm using the XX swingarm and the ZX10 rear caliper. [snip] Is there a better solution? Never too late to change... Ah. I used the ZX14 swingarm, so I didn't have that problem. I had other problems. Ha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Bracket? Adapter? For what? Just order the parts you don't have from PartsFish or wherever. I'm using the XX swingarm and the ZX10 rear caliper. [snip] Is there a better solution? Never too late to change... Ah. I used the ZX14 swingarm, so I didn't have that problem. I had other problems. Ha. While y'all have pioneered almost all of it, I can guarantee I'll have "issues". Knowing me, it will be on the simplest of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 While y'all have pioneered almost all of it, I can guarantee I'll have "issues". Knowing me, it will be on the simplest of things. I take no credit. It was all Stan. It's easy to follow a trail blazed by The Master. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 While y'all have pioneered almost all of it, I can guarantee I'll have "issues". Knowing me, it will be on the simplest of things. Not if you ask enough questions..... because everyone here that has done the upgrade, is more than willing to help you, or anyone else for that matter, end up with the same great results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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