JB4XX Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 Swapped the temp sensor and now the gauge is working. It is a 99 motor, a 2001 harness. Digital dash. at half to full throttle the bike will do 1000-1100 rpm. at 1k rpm, the speedo on the digital dash is ready 7mph. Speed sensor? another clue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 just got off the phone,,,no chain, so speed is ok,,it's turning the sprokett.. But, the cams look to be as the book says to be. So, I got him confirming #1 compression timing mark and take pictures. I know when I got it wrong, I had #1 and #4 mixed up. Thought the lobes were the ones next to the chain. Because of the picture looks like that. But, the #1 is on the oposite end of the cams. That is what gets most people. Good thing that the valves are ok with that and the pistons too. But, I can't for the life of me figure what it is that sets #1 different than #4 in the computer. It can't be the pulser wheel cause they are the same for both. So is the crank sensor. I know I am tired, cause that can't be right. Oh well, Josh is gonna shoot some pictures and post them. Let the people that are more awake than I am help me to think...Cause I am so missing something..an I know it. The relationship between the two wheels has got to be the problem and the solution. Because they are the way the book shows. But, it is wrong, and changing it will fix it, I do know that. The crank has got to have a way to know it ain't right above. but, it can't. Derrrrrr, dumb shit..brain fart... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB4XX Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Pics look like the book...it has to be wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodealdrive Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 nice touch slipping in the shocker in the last photo with the cams not being 180 out (I too somehow know about this) it seems like a wiring harness issue with the different years but that's guess. Good luck, hope you get it soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrbear Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Ive been a tech for quite a few years with hondas as my specialty and judging by the photos, especially the last one you posted I noticed two things. One your missing a finger and two where did you mount the flux capacitor? I really think you should call Scotty and see if he has any extra dilithium crystals urs might be a little worn. In all seriousness I have no clue I just wanted to be heard....lol good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB4XX Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 One your missing a finger and two where did you mount the flux capacitor? If I threw in the other finger I would be saying "Na-Nu Na-Nu" and shake your hand. Thanks for the support tonight Stan, I didnt like opening up the motor but I'm at "that point" now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 The correct way to do this is take the cams out. Turn the crank till #1 comes up on compression, and put the cams in like the picture shows. What is wrong is the cams were put in when it was not on compression. So turning the cams 180 will get it right! but my head says different. It would be compression at tdc without the cams both places...I know go get some sleep.. Nite... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Josh, I don't see a pic of the starting point...the TDC mark on the rotor lining up with the mark on the cover...If that's correct, the location of the cam lobes on #1 cylinder says the cams are in right, or close to right...I can't verify the intake because of the frame in the way... Not sure what you guys are talking about being 180 degrees out...the crankshaft rotates 2 times for every rotation of the cam set, so if you viewed the sprocket marks at 1 point and they were 180 out, 1 revolution of the crank would bring the marks to where they could be read... Interesting problem...wish I had some more insight for ya, but I'm only somewhat familiar with the carbed bikes...Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Since we have changed the coils,( right coil firing, 2/3, left 1/4,) which is backwards, once, and it did not help, but got worse, no idle even at full throttle. And that is correct on the cams. If Josh confirms timing mark picture, then must be the cam position sensor, like you say. I had told Josh to pull the cams and confirm compression stroke but, if the timing mark is correct, and the cams out, what else could it be? More coffee, thats what.... Long distance, no beer drinking, engine diagonsisting, sucks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB4XX Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I switched the coils and it wouldnt run at all, but it did scare the shit out of a 12 year old with a nice backfire. I swapped out the cam sensor and temp sensors last night...no change. I talked to Tim (redbird) in Key West this morning. I plan on turning the cams 180 tonight unless someone comes up with a reason why I shouldnt. Tim suggested taking the cams out, rotating the crank 360 and installing the cams like they are now. Should be the same as flipping them right? I can swap out the ignition pickup before doing the cams if you think it could be worth doing. Thanks for the help guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I switched the coils and it wouldnt run at all, but it did scare the shit out of a 12 year old with a nice backfire. I swapped out the cam sensor and temp sensors last night...no change. I talked to Tim (redbird) in Key West this morning. I plan on turning the cams 180 tonight unless someone comes up with a reason why I shouldnt. Tim suggested taking the cams out, rotating the crank 360 and installing the cams like they are now. Should be the same as flipping them right? I can swap out the ignition pickup before doing the cams if you think it could be worth doing. Thanks for the help guys. I would, just to eliminate the ign pickup before doing the cams. Two reasons, It is all that is left that might be it, and you doing the cams by your self the first time. Sorry,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Dean, forgive me...are you saying you installed the cams once with 2 and 3 at TDC? Clarify that for me, will ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Dean, forgive me...are you saying you installed the cams once with 2 and 3 at TDC? Clarify that for me, will ya? No, if you look at the diagram in the manual, it looks like the lobes shown are on the cam sprocket end of the cam, not the other end. He, and I mistook #4 for #1 when we installed them wrong. Anyway, that is what gets done to get it wrong. If #4 valves are closed with the intake and exhaust indicators pointing out and in line with the head surface, it will run like Josh's. And no I ain't "Dean, but I got some sleep last night... And if you did have 2 and 3 tdc it would bend all the valves to put the cams like it is shown in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Dean, forgive me...are you saying you installed the cams once with 2 and 3 at TDC? Clarify that for me, will ya? No, he installed them as outlined in the manual but with #1 at TDC on the exhaust stroke rather than the compression stroke. I made the exact same mistake, and my results were much like Josh is describing here. I removed the cams, turned her once, reinstalled, everything was peachy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhubarbray Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I`m just throwing in my observations here. The only thing that determines when an engine is on compression or exhaust,....is the cams. If you take the cams out and turn the engine 360 degrees,........wouldn`t you end up exactly in the same place?? If #1 is at TDC, then 360 degrees later #1 is again at TDC. Is it possible to mix up the intake and exhaust cams?? I don`t know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 The only thing that determines when an engine is on compression or exhaust,....is the cams. If you take the cams out and turn the engine 360 degrees,........wouldn`t you end up exactly in the same place?? If #1 is at TDC, then 360 degrees later #1 is again at TDC. There's a crankshaft sensor and the computer counts. The cams are 180 off from where the computer thinks it is, so the fuel is being injected at the wrong time and the plugs are being sparked at the wrong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Dean, forgive me...are you saying you installed the cams once with 2 and 3 at TDC? Clarify that for me, will ya? No, he installed them as outlined in the manual but with #1 at TDC on the exhaust stroke rather than the compression stroke. I made the exact same mistake, and my results were much like Josh is describing here. I removed the cams, turned her once, reinstalled, everything was peachy. The cams make it the exhaust or compression stroke, not the crank. Maybe it's a matter of semantics... When ya get her straightened out, I'd really appreciate a clarification... Hank The only thing that determines when an engine is on compression or exhaust,....is the cams. If you take the cams out and turn the engine 360 degrees,........wouldn`t you end up exactly in the same place?? If #1 is at TDC, then 360 degrees later #1 is again at TDC. There's a crankshaft sensor and the computer counts. The cams are 180 off from where the computer thinks it is, so the fuel is being injected at the wrong time and the plugs are being sparked at the wrong time. Ahhh...starting to see the light, Skull... Why do people fuck with FI anyhow...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Why do people fuck with FI anyhow...LOL Because it's so much better than carburetors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 In the book, it says to take it apart at 1 compression tdc, and put it back together that way and I am convinced, it remembers where it was.....All the sensors are even numbered wheels too. so it has to. If you took it apart at #1 exhaust, you would have to put it back that way. Been all day trying to prove otherwise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Why do people fuck with FI anyhow...LOL Because it's so much better than carburetors. I'm not so sure... I've been trying to figure out how something mechanical can be 180 degrees off, when it's that way by design every other revolution... If the problem turns out to be FI related, I understand... It's because it's better...LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB4XX Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 Pulled the cams, rotated the crank 360, installed the cams, torqued everything down, hooked everything back up. Still wont run unless throttle is held open, doesnt have to be wide open, but stays right at 1000rpm +_200rpm. I think it sounded healthier at idle and didnt need to be held as wide open...I also think I heard some backfiring through the airbox. Should I swap ECM again? Switch the #1 and #4 plug wire again? Melt the motor down and make aluminum foil? Pics... I should go buy some plugs, these are probably fouled out now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB4XX Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 I will swap out the crank sensor tomorrow. The FI light went out after I replaced the MAP sensor. It was throwing out a code 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhubarbray Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Could you post pics of the crank trigger? Just like to see where it`s at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 How in the hell if the crank and cams are in correct position "cams are 180 off".My brain hurts trying to understand that. Cam pulse generator is there so ECU knows when to fire injectors,as long as trigger wheel is installed correctly on EX cam sprocket who cares whether you spin crank 360,720,etc. They are either installed correctly or not .Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 good, cause that means that the engine dont know any difference between #1 top dead center and #4 topdeadcenter. Cause there ain't. The cams are the only way the ecm can tell. And if the cams are right, the rest is. Some things Josh said needs to be cleared up. Swapping 1 and 4 plug wires will not change anything. What he was told to do was swap the right coil to the left. Just because we were changing the firing. the right coil is 1 and 4. putting the left coil in the right location and ign wiring would have the 2 and 3 plugs being fired without changing the plug wires to do it. easier way to fix the cams off 180 on installation. Very difficult to describe. Clearly. I just hope he put them back....now. Ok, now pulling the cams and turning the crank 360 and putting the cams back in the same way does not change anything. Glad we got that out of the way. There is nothing to tell the ecm anything has changed at the crank. If you bring the piston up on compression stroke #1 to the tdc mark and install the cams with the #1 valves closed and the marks inline with the head and the int and ex pointing out on the cam sprocketts, it is right. period!!!!! It does not mater which turn of the crank it is!!!!! First or second. The problem is when you do #4 compression, period. This is easy to do because they are doing the same thing and the diagram looks like your looking at the lobes next to the sprokett on the cam. But, that is the #4 hole. #1 is on the other end. This has the cams 180 off. And the cam sprockett pulser wheel is not like the drawing when you do it this way. But, that is the only way to see the problem. Josh has something else wrong. He had a FI light. Was the wire to the map sensor because of a connector that EFR put in to fool it because of the turbo. He fixed the broke wire and it went away. No other codes. I have him to change the ign pulsar, tomorrow. By my count, that is all that is left from the 99 motor. Electric wise. Maybe there is something in there. Dropped a bolt,,,,, or something is in between it and the sensor fouling the reading making it fire wrong. If he turned the crank the wrong way,,,counterclockwise,,,,and the bolt backed out and the wheel changed location....something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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