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Cornering Speed


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I was not going to post because it was just turning into personal attacks to which I won't reply.

Nor do I care to "debate"; I gave my opinion, take it or leave it. As you say "To each his own."

You won't reply, but you seem to have no issue getting the ball rolling. What personal insults were directed at you before you went after me?

As far as "debate", this is a public discussion forum. If you don't care to have your opinion challenged, start a blog. Otherwise, you may occasionally find yourself in the position of having to defend your opinions.

Yes my front tire was worn but it was not stripped down the middle or have cords showing and I took the risk. I'm not afraid of risk. I'm not even afraid of death. Serious injury, pain, long hospital stays, huge medical bills - OK, I'm a little afraid BUT on the street I have insurance for all that.

I am informed. NJ is a "no fault" state. I know my medical insurance did not cover injury resulting from the operation of any motor vehicle. I got a discount for that. My auto or bike insurance is supposed to cover that but they limit it to "normal use ... on public motorways" and they exclude "racing". If I ride a dirt bike in a sand pit I'm not covered. If I ride a motorcycle on a race track as far as I can tell I'm not covered.

I did not read my various life insurance policies but I recall they asked if I scuba dived, hot air ballooned, flew a plane or glider, operated a watercraft, or rode a motorcycle. When I put yes for all those thing they asked did I race and I said no. My guess is they either would not have insured me, would have excluded racing, or would have charged me more money.

I do have a lot of responsibilities. Many of us do. I can't risk everything to learn how to corner better. Me - I'm not too good - I read a book.

I can totally respect all that, everyone has to weigh the risks and make certain choices for themselves. But the original poster was obviously interested in learning to go 'round corners a bit faster. That's never going to be completely safe by most's definition, but the best and safest place to do that is at the track. If you disagree, that's fine, just tell me where you think would be safer instead of telling me to go pound sand.

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Look where you want to go. Get your ass off the seat (toward the inside of the turn). Turn the handle on the right. Simple.

Should I steer or counter steer?

Is there a cutoff at a particular speed that you change your methods.... or do you go for what feels natural to you based on the situation and the enviroment? (Or should I just buy the books others have suggested?)

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Steering vs. Counter-Steering! Actually, it is very simple. A motorcycle requires counter-steering when the gyroscopic effect of the wheels rotating, cause enough force for the bike to try and remain perfectly upright. At that point, which varies from bike to bike, depending on unsprung weight and mass,.....you now are required to counter-steer to change direction. When riding while at a speed slower than that, you would normally "steer" the bike to where you want to go.

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I was not going to post because it was just turning into personal attacks to which I won't reply.

Nor do I care to "debate"; I gave my opinion, take it or leave it. As you say "To each his own."

You won't reply, but you seem to have no issue getting the ball rolling. What personal insults were directed at you before you went after me?

As far as "debate", this is a public discussion forum. If you don't care to have your opinion challenged, start a blog. Otherwise, you may occasionally find yourself in the position of having to defend your opinions.

Yes my front tire was worn but it was not stripped down the middle or have cords showing and I took the risk. I'm not afraid of risk. I'm not even afraid of death. Serious injury, pain, long hospital stays, huge medical bills - OK, I'm a little afraid BUT on the street I have insurance for all that.

I am informed. NJ is a "no fault" state. I know my medical insurance did not cover injury resulting from the operation of any motor vehicle. I got a discount for that. My auto or bike insurance is supposed to cover that but they limit it to "normal use ... on public motorways" and they exclude "racing". If I ride a dirt bike in a sand pit I'm not covered. If I ride a motorcycle on a race track as far as I can tell I'm not covered.

I did not read my various life insurance policies but I recall they asked if I scuba dived, hot air ballooned, flew a plane or glider, operated a watercraft, or rode a motorcycle. When I put yes for all those thing they asked did I race and I said no. My guess is they either would not have insured me, would have excluded racing, or would have charged me more money.

I do have a lot of responsibilities. Many of us do. I can't risk everything to learn how to corner better. Me - I'm not too good - I read a book.

I can totally respect all that, everyone has to weigh the risks and make certain choices for themselves. But the original poster was obviously interested in learning to go 'round corners a bit faster. That's never going to be completely safe by most's definition, but the best and safest place to do that is at the track. If you disagree, that's fine, just tell me where you think would be safer instead of telling me to go pound sand.

I did not say insult but I quoted exactly what I took as personal.

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I did not say insult but I quoted exactly what I took as personal.

Buddy, if you think being told you're wrong is a "personal attack", you'd better strap in, it gets way worse around here.

Thus far all you've done in this thread is tell a bunch of guys with extended experience doing a certain thing you've never done (but hey, you watched once, right?) how that certain thing works and how unsafe it is.

I'll ask again, what's your advice for the original poster if you don't recommend taking it to the track? Or are you just in this thread to advise us all on what our insurance will and won't cover?

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-1 on track days. I went there and every other bike was a rashed up piece of crap. Then one guy T-boned another. Both of them went to the hospital and both bikes were junk.

Your medical insurance may not cover racing. Your life insurance may not cover racing. Your bike insurance will not cover racing. You, your life, your family, and your bike may all be at risk.

Mike, I think you have a reasonable but un-informed view.

Track days are considered skill enhancement. They are very controlled but accidents happen everywhere. EMT's are right on it and it is very rare that anyone is so injured they never ride again or die.

I am very surprised to see you take this safety position after we were at Deal's Gap. Your front was so shagged, I'm amazed you road that back to NY. I would not have left town with a tire that way but I'm sure it didn't look that when you left NY.

This just goes to show, everyone has a different view of safe/unsafe. To each his own.

I was not going to post because it was just turning into personal attacks to which I won't reply.

Nor do I care to "debate"; I gave my opinion, take it or leave it. As you say "To each his own."

Yes my front tire was worn but it was not stripped down the middle or have cords showing and I took the risk. I'm not afraid of risk. I'm not even afraid of death. Serious injury, pain, long hospital stays, huge medical bills - OK, I'm a little afraid BUT on the street I have insurance for all that.

I am informed. NJ is a "no fault" state. I know my medical insurance did not cover injury resulting from the operation of any motor vehicle. I got a discount for that. My auto or bike insurance is supposed to cover that but they limit it to "normal use ... on public motorways" and they exclude "racing". If I ride a dirt bike in a sand pit I'm not covered. If I ride a motorcycle on a race track as far as I can tell I'm not covered.

I did not read my various life insurance policies but I recall they asked if I scuba dived, hot air ballooned, flew a plane or glider, operated a watercraft, or rode a motorcycle. When I put yes for all those thing they asked did I race and I said no. My guess is they either would not have insured me, would have excluded racing, or would have charged me more money.

I do have a lot of responsibilities. Many of us do. I can't risk everything to learn how to corner better. Me - I'm not too good - I read a book.

So what you're saying is; if you fall down the stairs or get sick, you're covered... BUT... if you get hurt while DOING anything, you're health insurance doesn't cover you?! I know I can't get more than $5k of personal medical insurance on my auto/bike policies, and I know when I was in the hospital for my burns for 2 days, it was more than that, and that's not even any length of time in the ICU or ER, or surgery, or anything... All places you end up after even a slightly worse than average motorcycle accident...

Mike

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So what you're saying is; if you fall down the stairs or get sick, you're covered... BUT... if you get hurt while DOING anything, you're health insurance doesn't cover you?! I know I can't get more than $5k of personal medical insurance on my auto/bike policies, and I know when I was in the hospital for my burns for 2 days, it was more than that, and that's not even any length of time in the ICU or ER, or surgery, or anything... All places you end up after even a slightly worse than average motorcycle accident...

Mike

Just a motor vehicle injury goes back to your own auto/bike insurance and all your medical bills are paid without a deductible. The dollar limit on a cheap policy is $250,000.

"The term "no-fault" auto insurance is often used loosely to denote any auto insurance program that allows policyholders to recover financial losses from their own insurance company, regardless of fault. ...The first party (policyholder) benefit coverage is known as personal injury protection (PIP). "

"These "no-fault" states include Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Kansas, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, and Utah."

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Look where you want to go. Get your ass off the seat (toward the inside of the turn). Turn the handle on the right. Simple.

Should I steer or counter steer?

Is there a cutoff at a particular speed that you change your methods.... or do you go for what feels natural to you based on the situation and the enviroment? (Or should I just buy the books others have suggested?)

If you're going much faster than walking speed and you turn your motorcycle, you are counter steering whether you realize it or not. That's how bikes turn. Honestly, I tend to do what feels natural for the environment and the situation.

Buy a good book on the subject. Good information from a reliable source is always helpful.

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I did not say insult but I quoted exactly what I took as personal.

Buddy, if you think being told you're wrong is a "personal attack", you'd better strap in, it gets way worse around here.

Thus far all you've done in this thread is tell a bunch of guys with extended experience doing a certain thing you've never done (but hey, you watched once, right?) how that certain thing works and how unsafe it is.

I'll ask again, what's your advice for the original poster if you don't recommend taking it to the track? Or are you just in this thread to advise us all on what our insurance will and won't cover?

OK Buddy and I never said it was unsafe.

Go in slow - come out fast.

Happy now?

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OK Buddy and I never said it was unsafe.

No, you never used that word.

Go in slow - come out fast.

Happy now?

Thrilled, ecstatic even. I'm gonna try that. :icon_biggrin:

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So what you're saying is; if you fall down the stairs or get sick, you're covered... BUT... if you get hurt while DOING anything, you're health insurance doesn't cover you?! I know I can't get more than $5k of personal medical insurance on my auto/bike policies, and I know when I was in the hospital for my burns for 2 days, it was more than that, and that's not even any length of time in the ICU or ER, or surgery, or anything... All places you end up after even a slightly worse than average motorcycle accident...

Mike

Just a motor vehicle injury goes back to your own auto/bike insurance and all your medical bills are paid without a deductible. The dollar limit on a cheap policy is $250,000.

"The term "no-fault" auto insurance is often used loosely to denote any auto insurance program that allows policyholders to recover financial losses from their own insurance company, regardless of fault. ...The first party (policyholder) benefit coverage is known as personal injury protection (PIP). "

"These "no-fault" states include Colorado, Florida, Hawaii, Kansas, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, and Utah."

hmmm... not in Indiana... The most PIP I can get though my motorcycle insurance is $5k... I've got $250k on other people if the accident is my fault, but not on me... can't get it like that here...

Still, though... I figure I'm MUCH more likely to get hurt dirt biking or something like that than street biking, and I'd hate to pay for insurance that doesn't cover it... All my health insurance doesn't cover is work-related stuff, where I got hurt at work (workman's comp... company's insurance pays)

Mike

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First get your ass off the seat (at least half) next wieght the inside peg, steer with the inside of your outside leg by putting pressure on the tank/seat/whatever it comes in contact with, countersteer, clip the apex late, look up the road or track, know your corner speeds, know your braking distances, know your tires master throttle control and dont be a dick

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hmmm... not in Indiana... The most PIP I can get though my motorcycle insurance is $5k... I've got $250k on other people if the accident is my fault, but not on me... can't get it like that here...

Still, though... I figure I'm MUCH more likely to get hurt dirt biking or something like that than street biking, and I'd hate to pay for insurance that doesn't cover it... All my health insurance doesn't cover is work-related stuff, where I got hurt at work (workman's comp... company's insurance pays)

Mike

NJ auto/bike insurance works just like workman's comp which (just as you say) does not go to your health insurance.

Right at the ER they will ask you if your were hurt at work or in an auto accident.

BTW - Your $5000 PIP is a token amount to pay for your deductible and co-payments, a broken arm, a few stitches, etc.

Sorry my comments turned into an insurance thread. PADI covers Scuba divers. NRA covers gun owners. The AMA or WERA should cover Track Days.

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Track days

+ what ever the number is up to now. I didn't read the whole thread.

Also ride with experienced corner carvers. Have them follow you for a while and let them point out what you may be doing wrong or what you could do better. A set of eyes watching what your doing helped me out a lot.

Relax your grip on the clip ons. Don't strangle the grips. Just relax. Speed will come in time.

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[The AMA or WERA should cover Track Days.

They are both racing organizations. Why would they do that?

That's one of the major benefits that drive memberships to organizations like PADI, NRA, AOPA.

WERA and other local organizations sponsors track days and has an interest in promoting track riding as a feeder to amateur racing. I just found WERA does already provide "limited excess accident insurance (while racing)."

The AMA is much more than a racing organization. They promote motorcycling in general, lobby on behalf of bikers, sponsor all types of events, provide roadside assistance to members, etc.

From Wikipedia:

"The American Motorcyclist Association is an American not-for-profit organization of more than 300,000 motorcyclists that organizes numerous motorcycling activities and campaigns for motorcyclists' legal rights. With the AMA mission statement being "To protect and promote the interests of motorcyclists while serving the needs of its members." The organization was founded in 1924 and now has more than 1,200 chartered clubs, who ride on- and off-road and on the track. In 2009 the AMA is celebrating its 85th anniversary. For clubs and promoters it provides guidance and advice on running events and rallies, and allows affiliated members to vote on AMA matters. It also has a corporate membership category with representatives from the US motorcycle industry."

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WERA and other local organizations sponsors track days and has an interest in promoting track riding as a feeder to amateur racing. I just found WERA does already provide "limited excess accident insurance (while racing)."

The AMA is much more than a racing organization. They promote motorcycling in general, lobby on behalf of bikers, sponsor all types of events, provide roadside assistance to members, etc.

WERA does not sponsor track days, although it is club racing, WERA is a for-profit business. Why would they want to underwrite insurance for track days?

Yes, I know the AMA is more than a racing organization, but again why would they want to underwrite insurance for track days.

The track day orgs will not underwrite insurance for people that ride with them, whether it is NESBA ( a non-profit club) or STT ( a for-profit business).

Again why would businesses with no vested interest in track days do this when the entities that are directly involved in track day activities will not? How would this help their bottom line?

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WERA and other local organizations sponsors track days and has an interest in promoting track riding as a feeder to amateur racing. I just found WERA does already provide "limited excess accident insurance (while racing)."

The AMA is much more than a racing organization. They promote motorcycling in general, lobby on behalf of bikers, sponsor all types of events, provide roadside assistance to members, etc.

WERA does not sponsor track days, although it is club racing, WERA is a for-profit business. Why would they want to underwrite insurance for track days?

Yes, I know the AMA is more than a racing organization, but again why would they want to underwrite insurance for track days.

The track day orgs will not underwrite insurance for people that ride with them, whether it is NESBA ( a non-profit club) or STT ( a for-profit business).

Again why would businesses with no vested interest in track days do this when the entities that are directly involved in track day activities will not? How would this help their bottom line?

If they thought it would make money they would do it. PADI, NRA, and AOPA do it for people who participate in those activities. Rutgers University sells professional disability insurance. I guess they have their reasons.

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Go in slow - come out fast.

That's the same advice Hobi gave me when I was preparing to meet Shotsfired... :icon_biggrin:

That, right there, is funny!!!!

Let me add the books I've read (not insurance).

Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch is my favorite.

Total Control by Lee Parks is good.

Twist of the Wrist but I not a fan of Keith Code mostly because I find him annoying.

+1 all good reads that helped me (I think)

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