Disillusioned with DeWalt

[SwampNut]

My $500 (retail) table saw said all the adjustments were pre-set from the factory. So I went to using it, and had some troubles. More splintering than I expected, and some not-so-clean cuts on hardwoods. I put it down to my own inability. I've never actually owned a good table saw, so I am not sure what it should be able to do.

Stupid me. Later I read a "troubleshooting" article on the net somewhere which said some of my problems related to adjustment. I go check. Well, every fucking thing on the saw that should be adjusted--wasn't. Blade parallelism, fence parallelism, nothing. No wonder I had problems.

As I try to adjust it, I find a bolt that just won't fit any sockets. WTF? Am I missing a weird size? Finally I try a metric socket. Aha. So much for American made... And having to use both SAE and metric to adjust one tool??? What the hell were they thinking??

Yesterday I was checking out some drills, not real seriously, but thinking about replacing my 12 year old Craftsman Industrial standard plug-in drill, which is also sold under the Black & Decker Pro label. I assume that means it is below DeWalt's standards. As I'm holding the drill, it seems eerily familiar. Hmm...it's EXACTLY THE SAME DRILL. Albeit in a bright yellow case with "DeWalt" on the labels and a big price tag to go along with it. So much for American made, and apparently DeWalt just buys shit and rebrands it just like everyone else.

Next I look at a Ryobi table saw, just because it's got some cool features. For the most part the specs are the same as my saw, except the include a slide-out extension table which the fence rides on, a slide-out runout support, a self-folding set of legs attached to the saw, and attached wheels. When you grab one end and lift, the legs fold up and you end up on wheels. Very nice. Mine has none of these. A hard-to-use runout extension is $100 and there are no extension table options. The only thing lacking is the geared fence the DeWalt has, but even that has not worked as well as I expected.

If I hadn't ended up with a ridiculously low price for mine, I'd take it back and get the Ryobi. Mine is definitely not work the $500 MSRP. The Ryobi is $269.

Why is this important? Well, stupid me, I was going under the assumption that I could safely make quality assumptions based on the name. I guess there really is no such thing any more. It's just hard to take home 2 or 3 tools at a time to compare them. I wish there was a place where you could actually go use some of these things and see what you think.

[SwampNut]

That's a damn good idea. I might just do that. I bet I can get a bunch of cash for it. Plus they have a promo now where I'm getting a $179 nail gun free for buying the saw. I'll sell that to, and end up with a nearly free saw.

[SwampNut]

Hehe, or "rent" from a place with a liberal return policy... :twisted: I don't really do that, but wish my ethics were liberal enough to allow me to.

I just found out B&D owns DeWalt. That explains a lot.

Wow. Looks like eBay price on my saw is nearly $400. DeWalt is sending me a $179 free tool. And I paid half price for it. I'm gonna make a killing and get the Ryobi.

[GriffbsXX]

The last time I borrowed a product to use in the fashion you infer was 29 years ago, and I regret it to this day. You wouldn't believe THAT story....

Maybe not, but would we like to hear it?

Wow. Looks like eBay price on my saw is nearly $400. DeWalt is sending me a $179 free tool. And I paid half price for it. I'm gonna make a killing and get the Ryobi.

You have to love it when things work out well.

[mikeG]

I have the Ryobi table saw and like it very much. Bought it used(looked new) for $200. Has a non-standard miter guage and slot so it will be harder to get tenoning jigs and such. The miter guage is actually made like a panel cutter, but I haven't used it much because I have a radial arm saw and the miter saw. I built an outfeed and aux side table for the Ryobi also, because the table is kinda small. Also has a router mounting pad. Very high speed motor too, at least compared to the Sears that it replaced.

MikeG

[SwampNut]

Has a non-standard miter guage and slot

Damn. So much for that one. I spent some time at Sears. Haven't been there in a while, impressive selection. They had my saw right next to a Craftsman Pro that looks more like what I want. Also checked out a Delta that looks very industrial.

Didn't come home with a table saw, but came home with this at a very significant discount after some haggling and then a pricing mistake by the cashier:

18 volt cordless tool kit. My ancient 9.6v drill/driver was getting rather long in tooth, and needed new batteries. Two batteries cost nearly what I paid for the damn kit.

[SwampNut]

$133. I do not shitteth. Don't need any of the other stuff in there really, except maybe the vac for the bench and to use when I do a cable box at a customer's office. It was supposed to be a little more, I negotiated a "meet half way" deal with the manager, but the cashier put in the lower price. I didn't notice until this morning when I was scanning the receipt to file it.

[EVLXX]

My dad just purchased a new Ryobi table saw......... very nice, makes me jealious.

I didn't now Dewalt was an over glorified B&D, that sucks!

Who makes Rigid? They have some good looking equipment.

[hjacobs]

On splintering on the table saw.- After you get all the adjustments right make yourself a "0" tolerance throatplate. This is the piece that incircles the blade. The best material would be 1/2" baltic birch with melamine on top. After you get it to fit the saw nice and snug, completly lower the blade, and raise the saw up through the insert (hold insert down with another board) until you get to your normal blade height ( 1/4" above material thickness.) Good luck!!

[SwampNut]

Ridgid is Home Depot's house brand. As far as I can tell it's made in the Orient strictly for Home Depot. I haven't found any matches for their tools like I did between DeWalt/B&D/Craftsman. Their new pro line of tools is quite impressive. I don't know anyone with experience with Ridgid, but just touching and using them in the store, they do impress. Also, right now as an introductory promo they are giving a LIFETIME warranty on power tools! :shock:

On the zero clearance plate, I just ordered one made from phenolic. Though that may have been a poor move since I am pretty sure I want to dump the DeWalt saw and get something else. It was $22, and seeing the complexity of the adjustment screws for it, I didn't think I could do a good job.

On the splintering, I also deserve a big "DUH" for myself. I've been using an "all purpose" blade. I should have been using a fine woodworking blade. I happened to find DeWalt's "Woodworker series" Fine Crosscut blades on clearance at Home Depot. I bet that's going to be a huge help.

[CBRXX]

As I try to adjust it, I find a bolt that just won't fit any sockets. WTF? Am I missing a weird size? Finally I try a metric socket. Aha. So much for American made... And having to use both SAE and metric to adjust one tool??? What the hell were they thinking??

This drives me nuts. All 3 of our "American" trucks are like this. I have been doing most of my own wrenching for a long time, but still can't seem to pick the right socket by eye.

On those Ridgid tools, I though I had heard they had been a supplier to Sears prior to HomeDepot. Just changed colors and labels!

Steve

[spEEdfrEEk]

If I hadn't ended up with a ridiculously low price for mine, I'd take it back and get the Ryobi.

Japanese tools are built with the same concepts of quality in

mind as Japanese motorcycles..

Be it Ryobi, Makita, etc.

:cool: TJ :cool:

[tvking]

I have nearly a dozen DeWalt tools and am happy w/ all of them. Yes, there are nit picks w/ some but is't rare to find a tool that does everything exactly as you'd like.

Is it possible that all the fasteners are metric and some standard sockets/wrenches just happen to fit? 5/16ths and 8mm are almost identical, 1/2 and 13mm are close, ect.

[JRA]

When Dewalt tools first came out they were basically the the Black & Decker Industrial line of tools rebadged under the Dewalt name with the catchy yellow and black colors. The only reason for this was marketing. B & D had become known more as a line of tools for the do-it-yourself type of person and they were losing sales of their upper end tools to company's like Porter Cable, Makita, and Milwaukee. They since have devoloped scores of new tools that Black & Decker never produced.

As I said in an earlier thread...That is (IMO) the best portable table saw on the market. I've had several (including the older version of the Ryobi that you speak of) and the Dewalt is by far the best. You can't buy a percision table saw for under $1000 so you can't expect for any portable model to be perfect right out of the box. The saw is cabable of high end work, just give yourself some time to learn how to use it.

I also said in an earlier thread that Dewalt tools are hit and miss. Some are really good, some are okay, and some are really bad. The quality of Dewalt for heavy use, like my tools recieve is only good, not great. I spend probably a thousand dollars a year on tool repair alone, most of which are Dewalt. This is partly because I have so many of their tools, partly because they tear up so often, but mostly because they are used hard.

I'm careful and particular about what tools I buy, and I probably will still buy more Dewalt tools in the future. I would probably buy another brand if someone else had the same range of tools with better quality. I can tell you I will not buy Craftsman power tools, Ryobi power tools, or Hitachi power tools. Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt, and Porter Cable tools are generally pretty good, but not always. It's too bad the only real way to know is to buy it and use it for a while, It's kind of like buying a new bike that you've never ridden before. You can get a sence of it the first time you ride it, but it takes riding it day in and day out before you really decide how much you really like it and msot new bikes don't have maintenance issues right away either.

[SwampNut]

I agree it's probably the best portable. I guess I didn't realize that I should have been looking for "movable" but not really "portable." I don't need to take it anywhere, just want to be able to roll it out of the garage. I don't have the space for a fully stationary model, but the portable has too many sacrifies.

My other thought is to just build enough extension table space to make it act like a larger one. I have to say this--the fence on the DeWalt is better than anything I've seen yet, and I've looked up to the $1k range. And to me the fence is a big deal; I want it to self-parallel simply and reliably, plus be deadly accurate.

[tvking]

I bought a mobile base for mine so I can push a pedal and roll it around the . The base is only about a 1/2'' of the ground so if your concrete is ueven it can drag.

[JRA]

I can easily cut 4'x8' sheets of plywood on mine by myself. I have four adjustable roller supports that I use as extensions. I set two up on the infeed side and two on the out feed side. When I'm not using them they fold up and I hang them on the wall. They're available at Lowe's/ Home Depot for about $50-$60. You can get cheaper ones too. If you should decide to buy a larger saw and want a really good percision fence check this one out: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...e&s=hi&n=552472

It's not cheap, but just like aftermarket goodies for a bike, it can make a big difference in performance.

[SwampNut]

That fence/extension is very impressive. A few bucks though! :shock:

How about some pics of how you set up your rollers? I know it seems obvious to you, but it would help me figure that out. Or is it really just a matter of setting them in the middle of each side of the blade? How do you keep control of the two pieces if they're just on a roller after they're split?

I only have one roller now, but I can pick up more cheaply. Harbor Freight is good for stuff like this where no precision is required.

[JRA]

I'd be glad to. It'll probably be this weekend before I'll have time to set it up and take them.

I do it pretty much like you described. I set each roller up just slightly lower than the table height (this is especially important if the plywood is curling up at the ends, this isn't a problem with furniture grade plywood but is common with most others) with two on the right side or the blade and two on the left. I make sure that the roller stands are square to the table, and that each set of stands will support the middle of it's side of the plywood.

The stands I use have three rollers each so it's important that they are square to the fence/table (or pretty close) so that the rollers don't feed the material to the right or left of the fence. I do this by placing my material on the table saw with the balde down and slowly roll the plywood across the fence to make sure it'll pass smoothly. It's easy to tell at this point if the stands need any adjusting. Once this is done, you're good to go for as many pieces as you need to cut. I've run as many as twenty sheets without needing to re-adjust.

As for keeping the material from rolling off of the stands after the cut, this is easy. By setting up the top of the four roller stands as level as possible you can just use you hands to hold the back edge of the plywood on the table top after you finish making the cut. If the stands are really dialed in, you won't even need to hold it; it'll just stay on it's own. Remember, the stands I'm using have three rollers each and are about sixteen inches wide so they provide a pretty large area for the plywood to rest on.

It takes a little practice to learn how to feed the material by yourself so that it moves smoothly along the fence, but once you figure it out it's pretty easy.

[SwampNut]

You make it sound easy, it gives me a bit more confidence. I think my cheapie rollers are lacking though, guess I'll look for better ones.

What do you think of outfeed tables vs. the rollers? Also, what about the "roller" units that are wide with a bunch of balls on them instead of an actual roller?

[JRA]

I'll definitely post some pictures so you can see my set up.

I think out feed tables would work well too, but I would think it would be a little harder to feed the material across because you won't have the rollers helping you. They might make it harder for one person to rip a full sheet, but with two people it would probably be better. I've seen some adjustable support stands that combine both a table with a roller in the middle. The nice thing about the stands I use is that I also use them as infeed and out feed supports for my planer. They work really well for that too.

Probably the most important thing is the set up. Take a few minutes extra to make sure the support stands are square to the saw, that they are just slightly lower, and that the saw table is level and so are the stands, or at least make sure they run in the same line. By this I mean if you were to lay a straight edge on top of the table saw with about three feet hanging off the front and three feet hanging of the back, you would want the same distance down from the straight edge to the top of the support stands at the front and back of each stand. It might sound like this would be easy but if the floor is sloping a bit (very few concrete floors are level) it makes the set up a little harder. I just take some thin shims and shim the support stands so that they sit however I want them. It doens't take very long to set this up, definitely less than ten minutes, put it pays off when it's time to cut.

The ball type rollers make it hard to keep the material running in a straight line. With a wide roller stand, the rollers tend to keep the material running parallel to the fence if the stands are square to the saw. With a ball roller stand they move in any direction so they will let the material go any direction you push it. They will work, but I only use them if I need additional support, and then I only use them on the far side of the roller stands (the roller stands are always closer to the saw).

[SwampNut]

Great points. Some of this surely seems obvious if you do it a lot, but I didn't think of it until you mentioned it.

[JRA]

Wolfcraft roller stand

http://www.wolfcraft.com/product_detail.cfm?id=110

this is what I use but there are others available.

Also, anyone interested in woodworking should know about these people

http://www.woodworkingshop.com/

Check these out. I could really use about three or four of the roller tables. The five roller stand looks better than what I have and it isn't much more expensive.

http://hottoolprices.com/woodstock4.htm