DrDyno Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Installed a pre-owned PC-III into which I downloaded a map for Micron slip-ons and stock or aftermarket air filter. My air filter is stock Honda and my slip-ons are Jardine RT-One's. Bike ran VERY rich through the midrange and was down on midrange power. I am having it professionally mapped at a Dyno Tune Center next week. I will block off the PAIR ports. One local Tuning Center didn't know what I was talking about and didn't think it mattered... I chose a different tuning center! However... I have some questions maybe some of you can answer: 1. Since the O2 sensor reads post-combustion gases isn't it always going to try to correct back to the ECU map? 2. Because of #1, above, are the PC and the ECU in constant conflict, with the PC overiding the ECU during the intake stroke and the ECU trying to correct as it reads the gases after the exhaust stroke? 3. Is an 02 sensor bypass kit required for optimum results? 4. Regarding #'s 1 & 2, above, how does the PC actually work in relation to the ECU? 5. How should I expect the tuner to compensate the map for lack of Ram Air during the mapping process? (I should think that no compensation will lead to a lean top end at speed in free air.) 6. I did not get an Owner's Manual or CD-ROM with the PC... does anyone have one in digital format I can download? I would like to learn what the +'s and -'s mean at the various stages within different maps. Many thanks in advance for any light the Collective can shine on my confusion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I can burn you a cd if you want one. my tuner added 2% after he got done with the tune to compensate for the ram, IMO if the tune center does know about the ram air effect I would go somewhere else. I don't know much there should be some on this board that will help you. I maybe wrong about this but look for a tuner that has a PC 250 dyno. PM me if you want to call me, Like I said I have very limited knowledge, Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I didn't think any 49 state models came with O2 sensors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGT Ski Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I know I haven't seen one on my 99 but I haven't been looking real hard for it but considering the amount of tear down I have done I would think it would have been noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I know the '02 CA models cames with cats and an O2 sensor, but not the 49 state models. Unless they added that for '03 on the 49 state models (and the bike in question is an '03) it's not a concern. Easy enough to check, there'd be a bung with an O2 sensor mounted somewhere on the header. BTW, Power Commander software and manuals are available for download at Dynojet's website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDyno Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 I can burn you a cd if you want one. my tuner added 2% after he got done with the tune to compensate for the ram, IMO if the tune center does know about the ram air effect I would go somewhere else. I don't know much there should be some on this board that will help you. I maybe wrong about this but look for a tuner that has a PC 250 dyno. PM me if you want to call me, Like I said I have very limited knowledge, Ron PM Sent... Many thanks!! I know the '02 CA models cames with cats and an O2 sensor, but not the 49 state models. Unless they added that for '03 on the 49 state models (and the bike in question is an '03) it's not a concern. Easy enough to check, there'd be a bung with an O2 sensor mounted somewhere on the header. BTW, Power Commander software and manuals are available for download at Dynojet's website. Thanks, Redbird! I will assume that if there is no O2 sensor that the Power Commander simply overides the ECU map with its own map... ? I've had the fairings off my '03 and looked at the headers but not specifically for a sensor. None noticed in passing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 1. I understand that only at steady rpm/low throttle ECU operates in close loop cycle( takes reading from O2 sensor),other then that is open loop operation. 2 & 3. I guess oxygen sensor eliminator is needed in close loop system. 4. PC is so-called piggy back device,it changes,in case of PC3,injector duty cycles.It does not change programming of ECU.Basically if PC3 calls for 5% more fuel at 4000 rpm and 10% of throttle ,engine will get 5% more fuel,whether it is slowly accelerating,very rapidly acccelerating,dec. or at steady cruise.It is a main limitation of devices like PC3,becouse correction is only 2 dimensional,while factory ECU bases amount of fuel delivered to the motor on,I don`t know ,6-8 dimensions ?. 5.There is a pressure sensor inside of airbox,it takes care of any effect of RAM AIR,tuner who tries to compensate for it on bikes that come factory equiped with this devise don`t know WTF they are doing IMHO.Stock ECU takes care of Ram AIR fuel needs based on that pressure sensor and speed reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Basically if PC3 calls for 5% more fuel at 4000 rpm and 10% of throttle ,engine will get 5% more fuel,whether it is slowly accelerating,very rapidly acccelerating,dec. or at steady cruise.It is a main limitation of devices like PC3,becouse correction is only 2 dimensional,while factory ECU bases amount of fuel delivered to the motor on,I don`t know ,6-8 dimensions ?. 5.There is a pressure sensor inside of airbox,it takes care of any effect of RAM AIR,tuner who tries to compensate for it on bikes that come factory equiped with this devise don`t know WTF they are doing IMHO.Stock ECU takes care of Ram AIR fuel needs based on that pressure sensor and speed reading. Spot on. First off, I would educate yourself with the sensors on your bike, know what you have and what they do. Then when trying to find a good tuner.... first ask him to explian in detail how the fuel delivery system on your bike works and how the PC3 is going to changes that. Then before you agree to have the work done, come back here and ask those that truely understand our bikes, if the guy is blowing smoke up your hiney on not. Anybody that arbitrarilly adds 2% fuel... doesn't know diddly, and is mucking it up buy another 2%. If they don't know what the PAIR system is... definately walk away. and if they don't already know that the Manifold pressure sensor adjusts for load, going uphill, ram-air, etc. ... walk away. Goodluck finding someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDyno Posted April 12, 2007 Author Share Posted April 12, 2007 Basically if PC3 calls for 5% more fuel at 4000 rpm and 10% of throttle ,engine will get 5% more fuel,whether it is slowly accelerating,very rapidly acccelerating,dec. or at steady cruise.It is a main limitation of devices like PC3,becouse correction is only 2 dimensional,while factory ECU bases amount of fuel delivered to the motor on,I don`t know ,6-8 dimensions ?. 5.There is a pressure sensor inside of airbox,it takes care of any effect of RAM AIR,tuner who tries to compensate for it on bikes that come factory equiped with this devise don`t know WTF they are doing IMHO.Stock ECU takes care of Ram AIR fuel needs based on that pressure sensor and speed reading. Spot on. First off, I would educate yourself with the sensors on your bike, know what you have and what they do. Then when trying to find a good tuner.... first ask him to explian in detail how the fuel delivery system on your bike works and how the PC3 is going to changes that. Then before you agree to have the work done, come back here and ask those that truely understand our bikes, if the guy is blowing smoke up your hiney on not. Anybody that arbitrarilly adds 2% fuel... doesn't know diddly, and is mucking it up buy another 2%. If they don't know what the PAIR system is... definately walk away. and if they don't already know that the Manifold pressure sensor adjusts for load, going uphill, ram-air, etc. ... walk away. Goodluck finding someone. Well... Based upon the information on this thread (thanks to all of you!) and the threads I read concerning the PAIR removal, Air/Fuel Ratios, etc. (did a search for "oxygen") I am becoming more and more convinced that this whole PC III installation is a mistake! I live at sea level and my Blackbird is (probably just like yours) fast as stink! It's so resonsive that while cruising in the 4-5K range every bump in the road translates into a bump in acceleration as my right hand feels the bump... even when I consciously try to keep it from happening. I drag raced a friend's '07 FZ-1 a couple of weeks ago and, except for the fact that I kept running into the rev limiter (I haven't drag raced in many years!) allowing him to catch up from time to time, the 'Bird smoked him! I have absolutely NO complaints with the power of my bike from idle to 10K+. So... I'm asking myself what Dyno Tune can do for my engine that Honda, one of the world's foremost engine builers and tuners hasn't already done for my engine? Guys... am I just wasting my time and money here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 I just got of the phone with Dynojet I talk to mike about the 2% increase for the ram air, he said that it was good to add this to the tune, that is what they recomend. to there tune centers. I don't know anything about this stuff, I DO know that my bike is like riding a defferent bike, it is much more smother than before the PC-111, the power IS much stronger. I am going to guess 10% more SOTP I would not say HP wise put 10% better feel. before say in 3rd at 4000 it ran strong but at 6,000 is when it really started to pull, now in 3rd it is a steady hard pull I don't notices when it gets to 6,000. In 1st I could lift the front easy, but now it will come up faster. It could run better if I took the 2% out, I don't know, right now I am going to leave it like it is. Dynojet should know what they are talking about???? Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDyno Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 I just got of the phone with Dynojet I talk to mike about the 2% increase for the ram air, he said that it was good to add this to the tune, that is what they recomend. to there tune centers. I don't know anything about this stuff, I DO know that my bike is like riding a defferent bike, it is much more smother than before the PC-111, the power IS much stronger. I am going to guess 10% more SOTP I would not say HP wise put 10% better feel. before say in 3rd at 4000 it ran strong but at 6,000 is when it really started to pull, now in 3rd it is a steady hard pull I don't notices when it gets to 6,000. In 1st I could lift the front easy, but now it will come up faster. It could run better if I took the 2% out, I don't know, right now I am going to leave it like it is. Dynojet should know what they are talking about???? Ron Hi Ron, Where do you live (altitude & climate)? What year is your 'Bird and what engine/exhaust mods had you done before installing the PC III? Any engine/exhaust mods since installing the PC III? Thanks, John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 I am becoming more and more convinced that this whole PC III installation is a mistake! Guys... am I just wasting my time and money here? Quit yelling and relax........ I don't think I have wasted my money buying my PC, but that's just me... you have to decide for yourself if you want the absolute most out of your bike or not, and whats that worth to you. So with all that said, my suggestion would be, if you're going to change Pipes or air cleaner to an aftermarket piece, then you should buy the PC to get the most out of it. Later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 how did you know I was yalling, I had my speaker off.lol Where do you live (altitude & climate)? Mississippi about 600 ft. What year is your 'Bird and what engine/exhaust mods had you done before installing the PC III? 99' the fastest color, yours must be red or platume the slowest color, maybe why the 2 % didn't help. LOL Any engine/exhaust mods since installing the PC III? no mods. I got no troblemoms, love hua bro. Ron DRDyno, I have not heard of anyone not liking the PC-111, you will like it. PM me if you want to talk, I am not an expert.there are many that know much more than me. I can call you and tell you what I do know won't take but 23second, LOL Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDyno Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 how did you know I was yalling, I had my speaker off.lol Where do you live (altitude & climate)? Mississippi about 600 ft. What year is your 'Bird and what engine/exhaust mods had you done before installing the PC III? 99' the fastest color, yours must be red or platume the slowest color, maybe why the 2 % didn't help. LOL Any engine/exhaust mods since installing the PC III? no mods. I got no troblemoms, love hua bro. Ron DRDyno, I have not heard of anyone not liking the PC-111, you will like it. PM me if you want to talk, I am not an expert.there are many that know much more than me. I can call you and tell you what I do know won't take but 23second, LOL Ron Actually, the secret to my 'Bird's speed isn't the Jardine Slip-ons... it's its incredibly slippery color... Cadillac Diamond Pearl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 13, 2007 Share Posted April 13, 2007 how did you know I was yalling, I had my speaker off.lol Where do you live (altitude & climate)? Mississippi about 600 ft. What year is your 'Bird and what engine/exhaust mods had you done before installing the PC III? 99' the fastest color, yours must be red or platume the slowest color, maybe why the 2 % didn't help. LOL Any engine/exhaust mods since installing the PC III? no mods. I got no troblemoms, love hua bro. Ron DRDyno, I have not heard of anyone not liking the PC-111, you will like it. PM me if you want to talk, I am not an expert.there are many that know much more than me. I can call you and tell you what I do know won't take but 23second, LOL Ron Actually, the secret to my 'Bird's speed isn't the Jardine Slip-ons... it's its incredibly slippery color... Cadillac Diamond Pearl! I stand corrected, Its almost as fast as Black. that is a nice gay bike, LOL, Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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