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Head porting or not - ***updated with dyno graph***

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A guy that is porting cylinder heads for motorcycles has approached me. He is saying that a street porting, which will be about X dollars, will increase both top-end power by a minimum of 10% and the torque will be increased over the whole rpm range. And also if the bike wheelies in first, it will do it in second to after the headwork. This is to be with stock cams and exhaust. He has ported a few track machines before, and the owners appear to be happy.

Any one has experiences in this and knows if it is possible, or if I should stop dreaming and turn the offer down? The bike is a Bird -97 that runs good as is, but more is always better, if without ketchup-effect.

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Guest rockmeupto125

$300?

How much to ship a cylinder head to Sweden.....?

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$300?

How much to ship a cylinder head to Sweden.....?

I guess that meen you say go for it. The price to me is low since the guy will do it to get more references.

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References are a must..

Good porting is more of an art than a science, without tons of expensive equipment, and the art comes from trial and error. You don't want to be the error. Also, if he does make the error, is he going to buy you a new head? Is he planning on just porting or is epoxy involved?

Stock XX head flows about 122-124 CFM and that is quite a bit lower than the 'busa, 12, or 14, which all flow 136+. You can get mid-140s out of the head without risk of holing the water jacket, but on #1 and #4 there is still that risk.

A good porting job is meaningless without dyno tuning too, btw.

Chrystal clear information taken, thanks ! I need to get a warranty as you say, in case the head is wrecked. No epoxy involved.

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References are a must..

Good porting is more of an art than a science, without tons of expensive equipment, and the art comes from trial and error. You don't want to be the error. Also, if he does make the error, is he going to buy you a new head? Is he planning on just porting or is epoxy involved?

Stock XX head flows about 122-124 CFM and that is quite a bit lower than the 'busa, 12, or 14, which all flow 136+. You can get mid-140s out of the head without risk of holing the water jacket, but on #1 and #4 there is still that risk.

A good porting job is meaningless without dyno tuning too, btw.

Sounds like you've had this done, may we ask where and how much?

Any more info?

Dave

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References are a must..

Good porting is more of an art than a science, without tons of expensive equipment, and the art comes from trial and error. You don't want to be the error. Also, if he does make the error, is he going to buy you a new head? Is he planning on just porting or is epoxy involved?

Stock XX head flows about 122-124 CFM and that is quite a bit lower than the 'busa, 12, or 14, which all flow 136+. You can get mid-140s out of the head without risk of holing the water jacket, but on #1 and #4 there is still that risk.

A good porting job is meaningless without dyno tuning too, btw.

Sounds like you've had this done, may we ask where and how much?

Any more info?

Dave

A replacement head is now on porting. I'll post pictures afterhand, to start with a pic showing steps and other restrictions on the stock head. Some parts can not just be worked by grinding, filling with chemical metal is also needed to keep up the gas velocity. The earlier mentioned price is not valid any more. I have bought a head and porting as a package. Anyone having Stage 1 cams in good condition FS?

post-3595-1168080417_thumb.jpg

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References are a must..

Good porting is more of an art than a science, without tons of expensive equipment, and the art comes from trial and error. You don't want to be the error. Also, if he does make the error, is he going to buy you a new head? Is he planning on just porting or is epoxy involved?

Stock XX head flows about 122-124 CFM and that is quite a bit lower than the 'busa, 12, or 14, which all flow 136+. You can get mid-140s out of the head without risk of holing the water jacket, but on #1 and #4 there is still that risk.

A good porting job is meaningless without dyno tuning too, btw.

Sounds like you've had this done, may we ask where and how much?

Any more info?

Dave

A replacement head is now on porting. I'll post pictures afterhand, to start with a pic showing steps and other restrictions on the stock head. Some parts can not just be worked by grinding, filling with chemical metal is also needed to keep up the gas velocity. The earlier mentioned price is not valid any more. I have bought a head and porting as a package. Anyone having a Stage 1 head in good shape FS?

This is picture of stock combustion chambers,right?

I`ll pull out my head in couple of weeks once I`m done with my R1 and RX7.

Just courious,what is stock squish on XX ?

How thick is stock gasket,2 layer or three layer ?

Couple of years ago I`ve built 1040 motor for yzf 1000,I did high velocity port job ala motoman from www.mototuneusa.com

,tractor like powerband and with 0.7 mil squish awesome crusing fuel economy,like 50 mpg at 85-90 mph.It feels like lost couple of hp on top end,but it is road bike anyway.

I`m gonna do the same thing to XX,I don`t care about couple peak hp but like to have fat midrange.

BTW Honda`s prices for internal engine part are from the moon,60 bucks for pair of intake and exhaust valves ( 480 for complete head),,,,,,,,,,, gimme a brake.I can get 20 valves for Yamaha for less then 200 bucks.They most likely come from the same source anyway,,,,, :icon_rolleyes:

Cylinder head gasket is about 60-70 bucks,,,,,,,14 bucks for 04 R1.

No wonder no priveteers are racing Hondas in AMA,their prices are ridicoulous,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

High flow numbers are almost meaningless unless intake velocity is kept high,on normally aspirated motor anyway,,,,,,,,,,

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I'm not doing the job myself so I cant answer all your questions. Yes, it is the stock combistion chamber. It will not be a direct copy of mototune's porting, but the general rules to keep velocity will be followed. I can sacrify the very low end as long as mid range and up improves. It is a bike to drive fast with anyway, but of course to much carving, and especially at the wrong places, will make is weaker than a stock head. The valves on this head is real fine, which is lucky considering the prices as you say.

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Here a few pics of my engine work. Keep in mind these were taken with a shitty disposable camera.

Intake side

IPB Image

IPB Image

Exhaust side & combustion chamber

IPB Image

And, since we're in the photo album, anyway...

My cylinder block after sleeving

IPB Image

Stock pistons in foreground, +4mm JE's in the background

IPB Image

Lightening of JE's shown here. The pic on the left is of a lightened piston, the pic on the right is how it started out.

IPB Image

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Interesting, is the engine ready and dynoed?

Another pic from the guy who is porting my cylinder head. This is from a KTM.

post-3595-1168162657_thumb.jpg

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My 99 Bird is stock apart from a K&N air filter, Denso iridium plugs (0.4mm tips), Penrite HPR 15 engine oil (15W60) with a Nulon oil additive (E20), a Toyota LandCruiser fuel filter, an ATF cooler to put the fuel through to cool it down, a pair of Yoshi RS3 slip ons, std sprockets, a Powercommander II (still on factory installed maps), Pirelli tyres (Diablo on front, GTS on rear), runs an 11.00 sec 1/4mile (no burnout, no power stand), (the clutch doesn't slip) but on normal bitumen road, power stands in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, upto 190kmh, all using 91 ron or 95 ron or 98 ron fuel.

The bike has as much power as one could use with out it wanting to do a back flip.

I find this an advantage against the guys on R1s, GSXR1000's, ZX900s.

There are guys over here sqeezing 300+hp out of the Birds engine to use in Sidecar racing, and in the Aussie midget Supercars, (they have m/cycle engines in them, all sorts), all naturally aspirated.

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My 99 Bird is stock apart from a K&N air filter, Denso iridium plugs (0.4mm tips), Penrite HPR 15 engine oil (15W60) with a Nulon oil additive (E20), a Toyota LandCruiser fuel filter, an ATF cooler to put the fuel through to cool it down, a pair of Yoshi RS3 slip ons, std sprockets, a Powercommander II (still on factory installed maps), Pirelli tyres (Diablo on front, GTS on rear), runs an 11.00 sec 1/4mile (no burnout, no power stand), (the clutch doesn't slip) but on normal bitumen road, power stands in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, upto 190kmh, all using 91 ron or 95 ron or 98 ron fuel.

The bike has as much power as one could use with out it wanting to do a back flip.

I find this an advantage against the guys on R1s, GSXR1000's, ZX900s.

There are guys over here sqeezing 300+hp out of the Birds engine to use in Sidecar racing, and in the Aussie midget Supercars, (they have m/cycle engines in them, all sorts), all naturally aspirated.

Welcome cjh where in Aus are you from, I am from WA, have you checked out http://www.ozblackbird.net/

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Head is now ported and ready with Stage 1 cams, pic update to come soon !

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Head is now ported and ready with Stage 1 cams, pic update to come soon !

I would love to know what your head flowed? I just had one done.

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Head is now ported and ready with Stage 1 cams, pic update to come soon !

I would love to know what your head flowed? I just had one done.

How many CFM's did you get?

The head to my bike is not flow tested, it is a street porting and not really built for max power at high rpm's. The bike doesn’t suffer a lot of power stock, but of course most enthusiasts want more, and I'm no different. The following is done to improve power and torque midrange and top and to maintain good drivability:

- Intake runners are port matched (cone shaped) to intake rubbers

- The short radius is smoothed

- The valve guides are reshaped but not shortened

- Intake dividers are sharpened to an edge like profile

- Any steps or other unwanted irregularities, in ports or port-to-seat transitions are fixed, either by grinding or filling with JB weld

- The valve seats are lapped in and surrounding area is unshrouded to improve low lift flow.

- The valves are cleaned back-cut

- The intake runners are sandblasted

- Combustion chambers and exhaust ports are polished.

Others:

- K/N filter, and possibly RAM air.

- Yoshi full 4-2-1 exhaust with race baffled RS3 carbon can

- Kentcams H018

- One tooth down front

Dyno runs will tell how the carbs should be tuned and what torque and power it finally will produce.

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The heads is not ready yet but here are som pictures on ongoing work.

post-3595-1169224470_thumb.jpg

post-3595-1169224487_thumb.jpg

post-3595-1169224505_thumb.jpg

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The heads is not ready yet but here are som pictures on ongoing work.

Is he using JB Weld?????????????????

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I am by no means the expert here, but the engine guy I use for race cars (that run liter bike engines) tells me that porting on current generation engines is not very cost effective. In other words, the factory doesn't leave alot undone. I'm having a 2002 (yeah, not quite current) GSXR 1000 engine built for my sports racer, and the best bang for the buck in the opinion of the engine builder was to raise the compression with aftermarket pistons, degree the cams and reprogram the stock ECU. I'll have to run 100 octane gas. The engine will be producing about 170 hp at the wheels. This fellow builds engines for race bikes and race cars, and has a good reputation nationally. It's pretty easy to go backwards when people start playing with engines, when you look at the big picture of torque and horsepower. Not many street riders would be happy with a Blackbird that puts out 20 more hp with a peaky torque band. Just something to consider before you let someone work on your engine.

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I am by no means the expert here, but the engine guy I use for race cars (that run liter bike engines) tells me that porting on current generation engines is not very cost effective. In other words, the factory doesn't leave alot undone. I'm having a 2002 (yeah, not quite current) GSXR 1000 engine built for my sports racer, and the best bang for the buck in the opinion of the engine builder was to raise the compression with aftermarket pistons, degree the cams and reprogram the stock ECU. I'll have to run 100 octane gas. The engine will be producing about 170 hp at the wheels. This fellow builds engines for race bikes and race cars, and has a good reputation nationally. It's pretty easy to go backwards when people start playing with engines, when you look at the big picture of torque and horsepower. Not many street riders would be happy with a Blackbird that puts out 20 more hp with a peaky torque band. Just something to consider before you let someone work on your engine.

Well,porting on current sportbikes is not really a "porting",it is just basic clean up to better match valve seats to the throat part of the port.Port shape is not really changed.

As far as cost effective,motors on sport bikes are well developed these days,unless you turbo the poor thing it is not effective,honestly,2-3 grand to squize 20 extra hp from liter bike ?

High compression pistons are total waste of money in current era,not to mention something like from Wiseco is much lesser quality then O.E.M.I weighted pistons on my 04 R1 ,all are within 0.1 gram.Try that with aftermarked.

I built YZF 1000 motor with Wiseco 1040 kit,it was a fucking nightmare,pistons as delivered opened squish to 1.7 mil :icon_eek: ,had to shave off 1 mil from the block,shave those stupid compression bumps,lay back valve pocket to get good burn,,,,,,,Wiseco sucks,those pistons belong in Cat diesel ,not in lightweight bike motor,,,,,,,,,,,

Formula Extreme factory R6 and Erion cbr600 rr run stock pistons,140+ whp from 600 cc motors,,,,,,,,

Honestly,what compression ratio do you run? You can get 13.5 with stock pistons and cams without touching valve pockets on current literbike,thinner head gasket/shaved block/shaved head,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,170 whp is nothing to brag on Gixer 1K,,,,the money would be better spent on set of cams,like from Yoshimura,,,,,,

Looking at those ports ( R1000),it is classic www.motoman.com

high velocity port job,parts are actually smaller then on stock head,it looks like it is "light " version,ports are taller then what he recommends.

That yzf 1000 I mentioned, bike received high velocity portjob a la mototman,it pulls like a freight train from 3000 rpms to the redline,there are no steps in powerband whatsoever,,,,,,,,,,

Next couple of weeks,I`m gonna pull out the head from my XX,refresh valve seats,do high velocity port job,etc,

It is normal to use JB Weld on intake ports,it works just fine,,,,,,,,,,,exhaust ports,,,temps are too high,welding it the only way,,,,,,,,

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I am by no means the expert here, but the engine guy I use for race cars (that run liter bike engines) tells me that porting on current generation engines is not very cost effective. In other words, the factory doesn't leave alot undone. I'm having a 2002 (yeah, not quite current) GSXR 1000 engine built for my sports racer, and the best bang for the buck in the opinion of the engine builder was to raise the compression with aftermarket pistons, degree the cams and reprogram the stock ECU. I'll have to run 100 octane gas. The engine will be producing about 170 hp at the wheels. This fellow builds engines for race bikes and race cars, and has a good reputation nationally. It's pretty easy to go backwards when people start playing with engines, when you look at the big picture of torque and horsepower. Not many street riders would be happy with a Blackbird that puts out 20 more hp with a peaky torque band. Just something to consider before you let someone work on your engine.

I have a GSR 1000 to, the -03 that delivers about 150+ rwhp stock compared to the -02 you meantion which is about 140+ rwhp stock. A power gain of 30 hp by new pistons only appears unlikely. The cost effective action on those machine is like you say not to port the head, but to raise the compression, if you follow up with some more actions. You don’t really need an expensive piston replacement on those machines, what’s normally done for low-level competition is to raise the compression by a thinner head gasket, put on a free flowing exhaust system and put on a Power Commander or similar to remap the fuel system (the stock ECU is not fully user reprogrammable on GSX R 01--04). By that you will achieve about 160 rwhp on the -03, probably a little less on the –02’s. Higher power levels require new cams and reworked head etc.

The situation for the Bird is a bit different. It has old-type angled and very ruff intake runners, compared to the GSX R, which has very straight and smooth runners stock. On the cost side a street porting can, and may also not, be very cost effective, it depends who is doing it and what you pay :icon_angel: . A well performed street porting /head clean up may be cheaper than a new set of pistons and the cost effectiveness depends as mentioned above in how much you pay. An experienced porter can do great things for a handful of $100's; the wrong guy will ruin the head independent of how much money you throw in.

It is easy to ruin an engine if you don’t know what you are doing or have bad luck, and it is never wrong to work on another head than the stock one. Apart from having a valuable backdoor in case of bad porting, one reason is that you have a far better chance to return money when selling the bike. A ported head, in case it has proven performance, has a far better value as a separate item than it will raise the price on a complete bike.

The heads is not ready yet but here are som pictures on ongoing work.

Is he using JB Weld?????????????????

Yes, that is the great stuff to use on intake runners, among others.

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.....

Looking at those ports ( R1000),it is classic www.motoman.com

high velocity port job,parts are actually smaller then on stock head,it looks like it is "light " version,ports are taller then what he recommends....

I agree, In case the engine provides a weak midrange, the intake runner floors will be raised. That is a fairly easy action compared to the other work that is to be done anyway to get rid of production imperfections.

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.....

Looking at those ports ( R1000),it is classic www.motoman.com

high velocity port job,parts are actually smaller then on stock head,it looks like it is "light " version,ports are taller then what he recommends....

I agree, In case the engine provides a weak midrange, the intake runner floors will be raised. That is a fairly easy action compared to the other work that is to be done anyway to get rid of production imperfections.

It looks like like XX has a "old way" ports,when bigger was better,newer bikes have actually smaller ports.Zx10 makes the most power from the current crop of liter bikes,yet it has the smallest ports,,,,,,,,,

I`ve worked on 3 gen of Yam 5 valve motors,thunderace,99r1,04 r1,they went to smaller ports everytime,,,,,,,

XX has a weak midrange( 4-7k),high velocity port job should do wonders to our motors,at least for the street use,,,,,,,

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.....

Looking at those ports ( R1000),it is classic www.motoman.com

high velocity port job,parts are actually smaller then on stock head,it looks like it is "light " version,ports are taller then what he recommends....

I agree, In case the engine provides a weak midrange, the intake runner floors will be raised. That is a fairly easy action compared to the other work that is to be done anyway to get rid of production imperfections.

It looks like like XX has a "old way" ports,when bigger was better,newer bikes have actually smaller ports.Zx10 makes the most power from the current crop of liter bikes,yet it has the smallest ports,,,,,,,,,

I`ve worked on 3 gen of Yam 5 valve motors,thunderace,99r1,04 r1,they went to smaller ports everytime,,,,,,,

XX has a weak midrange( 4-7k),high velocity port job should do wonders to our motors,at least for the street use,,,,,,,

Thanks for the info, smaller ports is really a thing to consider, and is probably the right way to go with the XX. I think I’ll mount the head and get the bike tunded and tested as is. If there seems to be a need for midrange improvement, the head has to be redone with raised floors. I'll use an Akrapovic open system and stage 1 cams. The cams and the system plus flow improvements in the runners and unshrouded valves will help midrange, so it might work well as is.

I'm very interested to hear your findings after porting of your head according to the Mototune concept, then we can compare the results and learn what works and not.

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I am by no means the expert here, but the engine guy I use for race cars (that run liter bike engines) tells me that porting on current generation engines is not very cost effective. In other words, the factory doesn't leave alot undone. I'm having a 2002 (yeah, not quite current) GSXR 1000 engine built for my sports racer, and the best bang for the buck in the opinion of the engine builder was to raise the compression with aftermarket pistons, degree the cams and reprogram the stock ECU. I'll have to run 100 octane gas. The engine will be producing about 170 hp at the wheels. This fellow builds engines for race bikes and race cars, and has a good reputation nationally. It's pretty easy to go backwards when people start playing with engines, when you look at the big picture of torque and horsepower. Not many street riders would be happy with a Blackbird that puts out 20 more hp with a peaky torque band. Just something to consider before you let someone work on your engine.

You missed the key points in what he told you, and raising the compression is, in virtually every case, the easiest and most cost effective means to raise power & torque.

Some of you guys need to consider that an engine is designed as a system. Modifications in one part of the system usually mean you'll need to modify other parts of the system to compensate, or to at least yield the gains you are looking for. Porting the cylinder head, for instance, may mean shit unless you increase valve size, or at least upgrade the camshafts. You are NOT going to gain 20hp by just porting the cylinder head alone.

Now that the head is ported and the cams/valves upgraded, you'll need to take a serious look at the airbox, the throttle bodies, and which exhaust system you're installing. Akra works great on stock bikes, but doesn't have the build quality, or performance of the TiForce.

If you're looking to gain a little midrange torque, then go ahead and work on the intake runners. If you're serious about building a motor with large gains, then you'll need to increase displacement, raise compression, and open up not only the whole induction system, but the exhaust as well.

I'll have more accurate hard numbers by May, but my 1255 will be making ~200RWHP, and close to 110lb/ft of torque. FWIW, we did NOT decrease the size of the ports.

Oh, and how do you suppose the AMA engines make over 200hp with stock displacement, and marginal increase in CR? The answer is in the cylinder heads, and I can guarantee you the ports aren't smaller than the stock components.

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I am by no means the expert here, but the engine guy I use for race cars (that run liter bike engines) tells me that porting on current generation engines is not very cost effective. In other words, the factory doesn't leave alot undone. I'm having a 2002 (yeah, not quite current) GSXR 1000 engine built for my sports racer, and the best bang for the buck in the opinion of the engine builder was to raise the compression with aftermarket pistons, degree the cams and reprogram the stock ECU. I'll have to run 100 octane gas. The engine will be producing about 170 hp at the wheels. This fellow builds engines for race bikes and race cars, and has a good reputation nationally. It's pretty easy to go backwards when people start playing with engines, when you look at the big picture of torque and horsepower. Not many street riders would be happy with a Blackbird that puts out 20 more hp with a peaky torque band. Just something to consider before you let someone work on your engine.

Well,porting on current sportbikes is not really a "porting",it is just basic clean up to better match valve seats to the throat part of the port.Port shape is not really changed.

As far as cost effective,motors on sport bikes are well developed these days,unless you turbo the poor thing it is not effective,honestly,2-3 grand to squize 20 extra hp from liter bike ?

High compression pistons are total waste of money in current era,not to mention something like from Wiseco is much lesser quality then O.E.M.I weighted pistons on my 04 R1 ,all are within 0.1 gram.Try that with aftermarked.

I built YZF 1000 motor with Wiseco 1040 kit,it was a fucking nightmare,pistons as delivered opened squish to 1.7 mil :icon_eek: ,had to shave off 1 mil from the block,shave those stupid compression bumps,lay back valve pocket to get good burn,,,,,,,Wiseco sucks,those pistons belong in Cat diesel ,not in lightweight bike motor,,,,,,,,,,,

Formula Extreme factory R6 and Erion cbr600 rr run stock pistons,140+ whp from 600 cc motors,,,,,,,,

Honestly,what compression ratio do you run? You can get 13.5 with stock pistons and cams without touching valve pockets on current literbike,thinner head gasket/shaved block/shaved head,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,170 whp is nothing to brag on Gixer 1K,,,,the money would be better spent on set of cams,like from Yoshimura,,,,,,

Looking at those ports ( R1000),it is classic www.motoman.com

high velocity port job,parts are actually smaller then on stock head,it looks like it is "light " version,ports are taller then what he recommends.

That yzf 1000 I mentioned, bike received high velocity portjob a la mototman,it pulls like a freight train from 3000 rpms to the redline,there are no steps in powerband whatsoever,,,,,,,,,,

Next couple of weeks,I`m gonna pull out the head from my XX,refresh valve seats,do high velocity port job,etc,

It is normal to use JB Weld on intake ports,it works just fine,,,,,,,,,,,exhaust ports,,,temps are too high,welding it the only way,,,,,,,,

You're right, 170 hp isn't a big number for the GSXR - I just wanted an engine a step above stock that would have a nice tq curve and good longevity. This is what the engine builder recommended for my goals. As far as the pistons, I don't know what he's using, but whatever they are he's had good success with them, as he's been building the motors for a long time. My compression will not be very high, as evidenced by the recommendation for only 100 octane. Cams were an option, but not considered as cost effective as what's being done. He's got a dyno, and knows what the bottom line is for each modification. BTW, I'm spending $2K for this complete engine, not a rebuild on my current engine. I'll finally have a good spare stock engine.....

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