frequency of oil changes

[Canadian Bird]

OK, I know this has been done to death but here goes. How frequent is too frequent to change ones oil? Let it rip. What's wrong with following the recommended milage in the owner's manual? Does it ever become a waste of money, oil, to change too frequently? Yes, I know "opinions are like ass holes, everyone has one" and we earn it we can spend it. Is, say, 3,000 kms too often? Is 9,000 ,kms too long?

[redxxrdr]

Page 73 of the 01 owners manual shows first oil change at 600 miles. Next a 8000, then 16k then 24K. Changing filter at each oil change. I have been changing mine around 4k. But I grew up driving aircooled VW with dino oil. Old habits are hard to break.

With the synthetics that we have today, 8k miles with filter change is probably fine. Much earlier won't hurt anything but your wallet.

[Dion]

OK, I know this has been done to death but here goes. How frequent is too frequent to change ones oil? Let it rip. What's wrong with following the recommended milage in the owner's manual? Does it ever become a waste of money, oil, to change too frequently? Yes, I know "opinions are like ass holes, everyone has one" and we earn it we can spend it. Is, say, 3,000 kms too often? Is 9,000 ,kms too long?

I would say maximum interval is what the manual says. There is no minimum, do what you like. I do the bird every 2800-3500mi. I do the track bike every 2 days.

[MrBadExxample]

But I grew up driving aircooled VW with dino oil. Old habits are hard to break.

IIRC, the old VW air cooled engines did not have an oil filter. Actually I think oil filters did not become common on engines till the late 1950s?

// sorry about the thread hijack, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[The Krypt Keeper]

Average bike ridden by average rider..

If you change your oil under 2,000 miles your wasting alot of time and money.

I prefer to change mine around 2500 - 3000 miles..

[TX1100F]

I plan to go with the Honda recommendation. Synthetics and blends are awesome as the molecular chains are all the same length more or less thus less shorter chains to burn and char and less longer ones to gum up. It pisses me off when the damn oil change bandits make people panic when the oil gets more than 3000 miles on it. "If your oil has more than 50 miles on it, you could be damaging your engine. Stop by for an oil change! Only $126 for 5qts! Filters extra." I used to work in the research lab of a biggie oil company and the "normal" oil would be fine for 5k or 6k or more depending on additive packages and running conditions. The full synthetic PAOs would go at least 20k given filter changes at 5k or so. Personally, I use "normal" oil every 5k on my >2 wheeled machines (because it's easy to remember when it's due!)

That all said and being out of the industry for 15 years, I have been sternly lectured to ONLY use Honda mcy oil (or an oil specifically made for mcys) as Honda puts in additives specifically made for motorcycles with clutches and gears in the engine oil. Yes? And also to only use synthetic blends instead of straight synthetic. Yes?

[shovelstrokeed]

+1 on the 5K interval. I use a variety of synthetic oils in mine and did do some oil analysis on my BMW which, being air/oil cooled is a bit rougher on oil than a 'bird. 5K for the same reason too, it is easy to remember when to change it. Chances are, I'm changing it twice as often as needed but my real easy on the oil 15-1800 mile weekend freeway rides are mixed in with a week or so of just riding 4 miles to work and 7 or so miles home.

[bartonmd]

I generally run 5k on filters, and 10k on good FULL synthetic oil...

From here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2117291

I suggest some lite reading from http://www.sae.org "Title: Extended Oil Drain Intervals - Conservation of Resources Or Reduction of Engine Life (Part Ii)"

After reading that you may never change your oil again at even 10,000 miles!

There are millions of miles of oil analysis that not only prove short duration changes increase wear but also result in a lack of additive activation in the motor. If you own a Jiffy Lube then I would expect you to subscribe to the "3,000 mile Mentality" myth.

Oil addiitives are activated by heat and pressure. Due to the additives having to hold up over time ie longer than 10,000 miles the formulations take a certain period of time to become active in protecting the motor. Draining the oil at lets say 3,000 miles simply means the additives have just become active at the point you are draining your oil! In other words you are increasing wear by about 500% doing 3,000 mile drain intervals!

Oils that carry the extended drain ratings such as 506.01, 507.00 etc mean that the additives are formulated to remain active for periods up to 2 years, 40,000kms or 640 hours of usage. Oils like Mobil 1 0w40 are formulated to withstand 400F sump temps WITHOUT breaking down and losing viscosity. Furthermore the oils cannot break down due to the PAO makeup of the oil. These oils do not rely on elastomers like the conventional oils do. This means that the oil can fully protect your motor at any temperature without the conern of thermal break-down and thinning out of grade.

If you doubt the 10K oil change intervals perform an oil sample at 1,000 miles. Most cars with a fresh sump of oil will peak out at the 1,000 mile mark. After that the wear metals may increase by only 5-10% over the course of 10,000 miles! Nearly 90% of the engine wear occurs in the first 1,000 miles on an oil change! Increasing oil change frequency increases the duration your engine spends in the activation period of the additives and greatly increases the damage in your motor from failing to follow the guidlelines of the manufacturer.

Just looking at iron in a VW motor typical readings are around 20-35ppm after 15,000 miles of use maximum on a motor that has more than 60,000 miles. The oil filter is not capable of filtering this much metal simply because the wear metals are so small they can't be filtered from the oil. Also because there is so little wear metal you do not get wear as a result of the metal being suspended in the oil.

Dispersants require time to bond to the wear metals and byproducts in your engine oil. As byproducts such as soot (gasoline or diesel make soot just different sizes which discolor the oil) are created additives coat them and prevent them from clumping and becoming larger. Typical soot particles in diesel oil are in the nanometer range in terms of size 10 times smaller than what any bypass filter can even capture which is rated at 2 microns absolute. Your oil filter in your motor is rated at capturing particles in the 7 micron range with only a 75% first pass rating...Bottom line is your car would last forever if you change the oil every 20,000 miles and NEVER replace the oil filter simply because your motor is not making enough metal or by-products to ever get captured! Oils especially those for diesels can handle upwards of 8% soot, that my friend is a LOT of soot! to put that in perspective a typical motor after 25,000 miles without an oil change or filter change will only have 1% soot in the oil. This oil will appear tar black yet the oil still has 80% of its rated levels of protection remaining!

Most oils are limited by time in the sump rather than miles due to sulfur in the fuel. Most gasoline motors can safely go 2 years between changes when using quality oils formulated for extended drains such as Mobil 1 0w40 and Truck and SUV 5w40. These oils along with those sold as VW 506.01 have very high TBN ratings that neutralize acid formation for upwards of two years (1 year in diesels due to higher sulfur content wich causes the acids).

Heres the deal, forget the myths about frequent oil changes and basing your perceptions on how the oil looks. The best advice is use a quality oil and drain it at the specified interval. The worst thing you can do to a modern car is overmaintain it, yes this is possible due to the very specific regimine that VW engineers figured out to keep your car running at peak performance with maximum durability.

And check out here too: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=885843

I have not read the "actual" SAE paper on it, because they want $10 to download it, but I've read several "summarys" that read almost exactly like this, so I'm not worried about it really... although I'm curious still...

This is obviously slightly different for bikes with the clutch and trans using engine oil, but the last 10k OCI I did on the 'bird, the oil still had most of its viscosity, which is about all the gears degrade...

Mike

[blackhawkxx]

This is obviously slightly different for bikes with the clutch and trans using engine oil

Right, anyone that runs the bike at the strip, slipping the clutch at 4-5,000 rpm's, just think of the clutch material that must be in the oil. One thing for sure, you can't hurt your motor by changing the oil too much.

[airborneXX]

But I grew up driving aircooled VW with dino oil. Old habits are hard to break.

IIRC, the old VW air cooled engines did not have an oil filter. Actually I think oil filters did not become common on engines till the late 1950s?

// sorry about the thread hijack, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

They had a metal screen that was the same consistancy as your average window screen. You took it out cleaned it and stuck it back in. Cheapest car around to change the oil in. The gasket and washer kit for the screen was like a buck and 2.5 qts of oil IIRC.

[feelergaugephil]

Sorry guys!!! I do mine every 1300-1500 miles, as soon as it goes black and thinned it's useless and begins to slowly deteriate engine parts, and I use Honda oil/filter.

I do a lot of high spped riding at least once a week, on average about 300 mile ride sometimes up at 160-170s, but average cruise speed is 80.

[tomek]

Your oil get black after 1300 miles ?.There has to be something seriously wrong with your motor ,like piston rings missing.

Twice a year here,or 5-8 k miles between.Semi truck synthetics too.84 k miles on bike.Track bike -the same,twice per year.Mobil 0-W40 for little yammie.

[kf4mtw]

Your oil get black after 1300 miles ?.There has to be something seriously wrong with your motor ,like piston rings missing.

Twice a year here,or 5-8 k miles between.Semi truck synthetics too.84 k miles on bike.Track bike -the same,twice per year.Mobil 0-W40 for little yammie.

If YOUR oil hasn't changed color after 1300 mile's there's something seriously wrong with your oil! Don't you think there's a possibility an oil company can add something to keep it clean looking for appearance, feel good reasons? WOW! I got five thousand miles on this new oil and it still looks like the day I put it in here! YIPPEEEE! I found an OIL I NEVER have to change..................If you don't mind an Ole Carpenters Opinion, oil is beautiful fresh out of the bottle, soon as the engine starts and the whole time it's running there's fuel contamination and metal, ever so fine, wearing down and going through the engine. The hotter and more rpm's the more contamination. How long would it take you to put 3000 miles on your lawn mower? Id venture to say many decades. How often do you change oil in your mower, once a year, :icon_think: every 30 miles at what, 500 rpm's??????????????????????????????????

[redxxrdr]

Industrial engines need the change sooner than cars or bikes.

Like my old VW's, most mowers don't use filters or just have screens. They run hotter, and push oil harder.

Still you normally change them around 15 hours. Figure a easy 50 mph on a bike, thats still 750 miles.

I can tell you that when I have rebuilt engines that ran synthetic oils, there was little or no sludge buildup.

This probably means that the oil keep particulates in suspension better, letting the filter do it's job.

I use whiteout to write the mileage on my Honda filter. This helps remind me not to go to long.

For those who remember the old VW. 3 quarts was a oil change. 2.5 quarts in the crankcase and .5 in the air filter. I have run all my engines to 100k miles before rebuild using synthetic. Not bad for a engine design from the 30's. I am working to put a little Subie engine in my 65 pickup next time. 50 year technology upgrade.

[kf4mtw]

I use my 2nd trip odometer for oil changes, every 1000 to 1200 miles. To each his own.

[JohnA]

I don't let it go beyond 3K miles.

Never have, never will.

I wonder if people changing oil often have experienced the CCT 'issue'

[kf4mtw]

I wonder about people that put 3-5000 miles on oil in a 11000 rpm motor, do they only brush their teeth once a day or shower twice a week because their toothpaste or soap has "Extra Protection Ingredients"?

:icon_think: .......................... .......................... :icon_shifty: ..........................

[Canadian Bird]

Interesting responses. :icon_clap: Quite informative as well as opinionated and almost a "flame up". However, is Honda oil realy different than top quality dyno, semi, synthetic oils? That being said I've gone from whatever the bike came with to Castro Semi, to Amsoil full synthetic :icon_nono: and back to Motul Semi. I did buy a Scott billet lifetime filter, beautiful, expensive, very expensive, and haven't installed it on the advice of my "tech". :icon_nono: I do have it sitting on the shelve, sort of like a work of art, and dust it once a week. It's interesting to me, some times I post a ? and get tons of responses, sometime, nary a bite. Cheers.

As I write this a new add for Castro with sludge raining down on those who don't use their oil, is on the tube. Hope there's not too much of that shit in my engine. :icon_pray:

[tomek]

Your oil get black after 1300 miles ?.There has to be something seriously wrong with your motor ,like piston rings missing.

Twice a year here,or 5-8 k miles between.Semi truck synthetics too.84 k miles on bike.Track bike -the same,twice per year.Mobil 0-W40 for little yammie.

If YOUR oil hasn't changed color after 1300 mile's there's something seriously wrong with your oil! Don't you think there's a possibility an oil company can add something to keep it clean looking for appearance, feel good reasons? WOW! I got five thousand miles on this new oil and it still looks like the day I put it in here! YIPPEEEE! I found an OIL I NEVER have to change..................If you don't mind an Ole Carpenters Opinion, oil is beautiful fresh out of the bottle, soon as the engine starts and the whole time it's running there's fuel contamination and metal, ever so fine, wearing down and going through the engine. The hotter and more rpm's the more contamination. How long would it take you to put 3000 miles on your lawn mower? Id venture to say many decades. How often do you change oil in your mower, once a year, :icon_think: every 30 miles at what, 500 rpm's??????????????????????????????????

He did wrote "black" not "changed color",I won`t even respond to the rest of your idiotic post or in the future,becouse,well,,,,,,,, "if you argee with an idiot it is hard to bystander to tell etc ".

Apology to the rest of you guys. :icon_wall:

[OZDave]

Your oil get black after 1300 miles ?.There has to be something seriously wrong with your motor ,like piston rings missing.

Twice a year here,or 5-8 k miles between.Semi truck synthetics too.84 k miles on bike.Track bike -the same,twice per year.Mobil 0-W40 for little yammie.

If YOUR oil hasn't changed color after 1300 mile's there's something seriously wrong with your oil! Don't you think there's a possibility an oil company can add something to keep it clean looking for appearance, feel good reasons? WOW! I got five thousand miles on this new oil and it still looks like the day I put it in here! YIPPEEEE! I found an OIL I NEVER have to change..................If you don't mind an Ole Carpenters Opinion, oil is beautiful fresh out of the bottle, soon as the engine starts and the whole time it's running there's fuel contamination and metal, ever so fine, wearing down and going through the engine. The hotter and more rpm's the more contamination. How long would it take you to put 3000 miles on your lawn mower? Id venture to say many decades. How often do you change oil in your mower, once a year, :icon_think: every 30 miles at what, 500 rpm's??????????????????????????????????

He did wrote "black" not "changed color",I won`t even respond to the rest of your idiotic post or in the future,becouse,well,,,,,,,, "if you argee with an idiot it is hard to bystander to tell etc ".

Apology to the rest of you guys.

Have to agree with you :icon_duh:

[bartonmd]

This is obviously slightly different for bikes with the clutch and trans using engine oil

Right, anyone that runs the bike at the strip, slipping the clutch at 4-5,000 rpm's, just think of the clutch material that must be in the oil. One thing for sure, you can't hurt your motor by changing the oil too much.

Did you read the summary of the SAE report that I posted IN THE THREAD?? Nobody reads links, so I put it in the thread.

The clutch material does get into the oil... and is large enough to get filtered out by the filter. In fact, I went to the strip 4-5 times and roasted the end of at least one tire on the 10k OCI I did awhile back, and there was nothing in the oil that had anything to do with excessive clutch material...

If you read the report that I posted... IN THE THREAD... you'll see that while you can't "hurt" the engine by changing it too much, you DEFINATELY cause substantially more wear by changing it too much!

Mike

[bartonmd]

Sorry guys!!! I do mine every 1300-1500 miles, as soon as it goes black and thinned it's useless and begins to slowly deteriate engine parts, and I use Honda oil/filter.

I do a lot of high spped riding at least once a week, on average about 300 mile ride sometimes up at 160-170s, but average cruise speed is 80.

Sorry Phil, but when your oil gets black, that has NOTHING to do with it being thin... It's probably still almost the exact same weight as it was when you put it in at 1300miles... In fact, the 40W (10W40) Amsoil that I did the 10k OCI test on was still a 38-39 weight after 10,000 miles in the 'bird...

BTW, I commute to work on the interstate... 80 miles a day, at an average of about 80mph, and run between 4 and 9k constantly when I'm running corners... And the longer the rides, the easier on the oil, and engine it is... It's cold starts that are hard on oil and the engine, not long runs... That's why highway miles are considered "easy" miles, because, primarily, there are fewer cold starts than the lady that drive 2 miles on each cold start...

Mike

[OZDave]

Did you read the summary of the SAE report that I posted IN THE THREAD?? Nobody reads links, so I put it in the thread.

Mike

I don't think it has to do with being able to read, or comprehend. It is a belief system you are trying to change, and that is always threatening to some people. Whoever ‘got in first’ with the differing opinion has set the belief system and it is difficult to change. The dogma such as ‘Oil is cheaper than engines’, ‘You can’t change your oil too often’ etc will not easily be dislodged with fact and information. It will be seen as a plot to undermine the belief system and resisted firmly.

But hey....it's fun trying.

[blackhawkxx]

If you read the report that I posted... IN THE THREAD... you'll see that while you can't "hurt" the engine by changing it too much, you DEFINATELY cause substantially more wear by changing it too much!

I read it now, OK? I am no youngster and never had a oil related engine problem on any vehicle in my life. If it ain't broke....

PS-I did buy a chevy truck once (never again) and when I was changing the vavle cover gaskets, there must have been a full half inch of sludge in there. I guess the previous owner must have read your thread.

[Rixxx]

Technology gets better chemistry gets better but old ideas die hard. From what I read you are actually hurting your engine by changing the oil too often.

"If you doubt the 10K oil change intervals perform an oil sample at 1,000 miles. Most cars with a fresh sump of oil will peak out at the 1,000 mile mark. After that the wear metals may increase by only 5-10% over the course of 10,000 miles! Nearly 90% of the engine wear occurs in the first 1,000 miles on an oil change! Increasing oil change frequency increases the duration your engine spends in the activation period of the additives and greatly increases the damage in your motor from failing to follow the guidlelines of the manufacturer."

I do think the kind of driving you do makes a difference. My Corvette counts the number of starts, oil temps, miles, etc. and tells me when to change. Sometimes 4-5k sometimes 9k if there was a lot of freeway driving.