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Instant chain stretch?


Squareman357

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The 8 mm rear axle adjusting bolt's threaded shaft size is more equivalent to a standard 12 mm bolt, such as the 16 ft-lb torque pinch bolts used on the front axle. The 8 mm hex head size along with the enlarged ring inside the adjuster, is to accommodate it's installation into the adjuster bracket, allowing the snap ring to do the job the head would on a standard 12 mm bolt. The interior enlarged ring is what would take the "snugging" pressure being discussed here.

same again - the pinch bolts are there to collapse the material of the lower fork leg around the axle. It is the friction between the fork leg hole and the axle that stops the axle backing out. And in general, snap rings to not take thrust loads very kindly - that's why we have special static and dynamic thrust bearings.

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You sound like you know what you're talking about, but you need to take a closer look at your swingarm, assuming you own an XX.

A) No ajuster blocks. I'm familiar with the setup you're talking about, but that entire paragraph is irrelevant here, the XX is set up differently. The ends of the swingarm are solid aluminum with slots for the axle machined in.

B) "The ajuster plates would staighten out" How so? There's nothing to straighten, the shoulder on the bolt that sits against the ajuster plate runs right up against the side, there's no extra material to bend (or staighten out)

C) "The snap ring would fail" Being to the rear of the ajuster, the snap ring takes no load, how would it fail?

D) "If all load were taken on these". No one said it was. Failing to correctly torque you axle can lead to problems as well. As Jason said earlier, it's all part of system. Screw up either part and you're going to have problems.

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been a little while since i've looked at the bird, and with 3 other bikes in the shed i sometimes get a little confused, BUT

A) the swingarm in the bird is not hollow across the axle mounts - there are stabilisers inside - anyone got a link to a pic, or something from the manual?

B) you pull on that hard enough (9k in first gear for example) and you'll bend the lot - as the axle moves and takes the adjuster plates with it, you'll collapse the snap rings/shoulder or whatever it is, or just poke the bolt through the thread in the arm. Or, if the bolt stays intact, the [ shaped adjuster plate will look like a < shape looking at RHS

C) see B)

D) hookers? There is no structural basis for the adjusters on any bike taking fore/aft loads with the possible exception of cam adjusters.

Anyone got a pic of the area in question with the axle removed?

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ahh, righto, looking at the one on the honda site, the loads are being taken by the adjuster acting like a big washer and bearing on the solid slots - there should still be no load in the adjuster screws - look at the amount of play there is in them and the lack lock nuts for further backup.

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Thanks, Chris :roll:

Okay, I'm figuring out from your last couple of posts that this is all pure conjecture on your part. All well and good, but theory is just that- theory.

Go out to your bike filled shed and have a look at that ajuster bolt. It's much more substatial than it's 8mm head might suggest, and the "shoulder" has nothing in common with a snap ring, I'd happily hang a side of beef off that little setup. As for free play, that's what I suggest you take out by "snugging" the bolt outward.

At the end of the day, you, or anyone reading this thread can feel free to perform the little experiment I suggested above and judge the results for yourself. I'm not basing any of this on theory or pics off of Honda's website, I've held these part in my hands and ajusted the chain on my bike a few times, and solved others chain slack problems with methods I've mentioned here. Believe it or don't, I'm getting tired of trying to sell this shit to people who prefer to believe otherwise for whatever reasons.

Have a nice day :)

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So a little 8mm bolt isn't enough to hold the axle in place, but nothing besides friction is going to do the trick better? You tend to know your shit, and I respect your opinion, Pete, but like I said- give it a shot and let me know how it goes.

+1

....

and then I got to thinking... you know 140 ish HP goes through each one of those LITTLE chain pins. Each pin, or rivet, has to carry the load....

....

and then I rememberd the 79, 650 twin I had.... and when I broke that little bolt.... and how I was screwwed until I replaced it. :wink:

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Ok. Finally got a chance to get out to the garage today and look things over. Axle was torqued to spec (69.5 lbs right?) and did NOT loosen. Teeth are on both the front and rear, none missing. This puppy just stretched the hell out. Used the chain adjusters and turned them to the max and there is still a bit of sag, but no where near what it was, though now the marker is well in the "Replace Chain" section of the gauge. I think it may have been adjusted a bit too tight, and then when I added my 240 pounds and my triple bags to the rear, THEN I hit it hard accelerating to get into moving traffic, she started stretching then because she didn't have enough slack to adjust to the weight. The second time it happend, just outside of Merriville, it probably stretched it some more.

I'm now going to shop for a chain and sprockets since the dealer wants $200 for all three, and then see about getting them installed. Thanks for all the ideas. I've never really messed with the chain or adjusters since I got the bike, so this was kind of new to me. The chain was adjusted each time I put new tires on, so I really didn't have to worry much about it. I'll start paying attention to it now. I'm willing to do work myself, just concerned about getting it right.

Oh BTW, the friggen cotter pin is on my wifes new GS500F. I spent so much time going over it from head to toe after I put the lowering links on, that it was in my head. It's axle bolts actually have cotter pins on them, and I was mixing that up with the Bird.

So...any of you Chicago pilots have the equipment to install chains? There's a sixer or a case in it for ya! :twisted: :wink: :D

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So...any of you Chicago pilots have the equipment to install chains?

I've got everything you need. You've got my number, give me a call when you've got the parts in hand, or whenever :)

BTW- great meeting you and riding for a bit last Friday, sorry I hadn't gotten around to saying that until now.

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Thanks alot Tim. I had a blast too and look forward to putting some more miles on with you guys. Peter was cool as well. You know any places I should look for decent prices on a stock chain and sprockets? Or should I go aftermarket? I don't really know. I could afford the $200 for the dealerships parts and the $140 they want to put them on, but I'd really like to save some of that money if I can.

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Oooh..after looking at another sprocket thread that had Warchild posting pics of the sprockets, I just had a scary thought. Could I strip the INSIDE of the front sprocket? It may indeed have all of it's teeth, but if the mount is stripped, what would I have to replace to fix that and how would I be able to tell if it was?

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Wow, what happened here?  :shock:  

Botox, is that you, Ralphie?  :roll:  

Enough said.

I'm still with Tim on this one, but more importantly............

Squareman, did you ever figure out what it was?

who the hell is ralphie? - besides, each pin doesn't take the full load. Between sprockets, there is a combined double shear load on each pin and when loaded on the sprockets, the load is spread between at least 5 pins depending on number of teeth at both ends and the center distance between sprockets. The shear loads on each single pin don't even compare to the loads as the pin enters a sprocket. If the chain was on the way out anyway, i'll concede that the plates may have been yielding and the pins pulling through them, giving some links longer than others and a consequent uneven load distribution as the stretched link enters a sprocket (giving noise and vibration). In the higher gears you aren't generating as much load on the chain because the torque applied to the front sprock drops considerably. It is more likely to be this phenomenon that the axle moving considerably. For those who say it does move, can you pick a difference between the alignment marks/stringlining before and after?

Even though you have all the teeth on the sprockets, what do they look like?

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Pretty even wear on the teeth, rounded but not shark finned or ragged. I went to Ron Ayers and for the Bird they have 2 each listed for front sprocket, rear sprocket, and chain. Which is which? What is the difference? Sheesh.

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Well Tim I have to apologize, You're right, surprised the shit out of me.

I tourqued my nut to 70 ft lbs, put a line with a marker on the chrome adjuster at the end of the swingarm, and then turned the adjusters back and went for a ride.

I did a couple of power wheelies in 1st gear, rode 7 miles and checked. I'll be damned it took up the slack the adjusters allowed. (about 1/8 in.)

The only thing is by their design, unless they start walking while you ride, that 1/8 in. is where it will stop.

Again, I'm sorry. :oops:

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Crow tastes bad, doesn't it, Pete? :lol:

I wouldn't know, though, cause I've never been wrong before. 8)

Oh, FYI, Tim likes his apologies from the kneeling position. :suckmeoff:

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No need for apologies, Pete, you believed what you believed. I give you credit for having an open enough mind to go out and give it a shot- even if it was most likely only to prove me wrong :wink:

And you were man enough to come back with the results, more points for you.

Anson, can't answer you on the two different chain sets, I was under the impression that they were all the same. One thing I would suggest, order an extra master link when you get the stuff. Cheap insurance.

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I tourqued my nut to 70 ft lbs

Did you do that in public??

:needpics:

Oh, FYI, Tim likes his apologies from the kneeling position.  

Bahahaha

Nuttin butt Luv....

Seriously, Pete.. way to man up!!

Squareman: When you replace the chain, can you take pictures of the old/new lined up and laying next to each other? I'd love to see the comparison.

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Guest rockmeupto125

Good job, Pete. I believed the same as you, but reading the the input also had me questioning what I had previously thought as the truth. Thanks for taking the time to go check this out....and to report back with the results. Real world testing is the best.

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  • 10 months later...
I think it's a great thread, I learned something here. From a Mexican roofer, no less. :icon_wink:

It shed a bright light on something that happened to me a few years ago, and that makes me smile.

I gotta start spending more time in the Garage.......

Thanks J I missed this one originally. :icon_wink:

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