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FI programmers and catalytic converters--to delete or not to delete?


SwampNut

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I picked up a cat-back system for the KTM (390 Adventure), which most people say makes a tiny difference in driving, but not much.  You drop a lot of weight and remove this retarded huge resonator that makes the exhaust sound a little bit "off" and heats up the rear shock a lot.  Common wisdom on all the 390 forums is that you can run this without a programmer, or you can pick up a little zip and better manners, such as off-idle response, with a programmer.

 

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So my two discussion points are which programmer, and do the cat delete too, or not?  "Everyone" says that you gain around 7% HP and 10-13% torque if you do it all.  But more importantly, the people who have done it say there's just more low-down zip and improved drivability.  The engine is great as is, but there's always the fucking dragon to chase, right?

 

This has a couple good reviews, and is inexpensive.  The 'Murica made version is $350.  There are design differences but I can't discern whether there's any effective difference.  Probably not.

 

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And then, there are three programmers most commonly available for the 390.

 

https://www.boosterplug.com/shop/boosterplug-ktm-390-864p.html

Boosterplug, $170 shipped.  It works by connecting to the airbox air temp sensor and modifying the signal to it.  I can envision how this works, but have never heard of it before now.  I believe it can work in both closed loop and open loop ECU modes (not sure if that's true).

 

https://www.bestdualsportbikes.com/ktm-390-fuel-programmer-instructions

Best Dual Sport Bikes, $250 shipped but currently shows out of stock.  These guys talk up a good game, not sure how much to believe.  Highly programmable and claimed to be self-learning.  They specifically note that it boosts accelerator pump function for a crisper throttle transition.  It goes between the injector wire and injector, so it can affect open and closed loop running.

 

https://powertronicusa.com/products/powertronic-fuelx-pro-autotune-fuel-optimizer-ktm-adventure-390-250

Powertronic FuelX Pro, $180.  This one goes between the O2 sensor and its connector, which I assume means it can only work in closed loop.  Wouldn't the ECU ignore the O2 sensor other than in closed loop?  So whack the throttle, and the sensor is ignore?  Tunable and auto learning, with the option for a handlebar switch to choose two mappings.

 

https://powertronicusa.com/products/powertronic-ktm-adventure-390-2020-2022

Powertronic V4, $330.  The most comprehensive, it plugs into everything so it can access everything.  So the install is harder, but I'm going to do this at the same time I do an electronic cruise so the bike will be apart anyway.  It says it changes timing, and is the only one to claim a rather high dyne-proven HP improvement.  Other than cost, this seems like the choice.  "If it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing."  It is highly tunable with an app, and firmware updatable.

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I see nothing bad on the china pipe.  Possibly an overly fat weld in it at the port end, but I think it's just the color/lighting.  And if it is excessively fat it can be smoothed pretty easily.

 

I don't know any of those tuner brands.  #1. Artificially lowering the air temp should give more timing and fuel and still do closed loop.  #2. The few 'self learning' tuners I've read about were bullshit, but that was a very long time ago.  #3. I feel like that's the worst option, but I don't truly know.  #4. Seems like the best of the bunch.

 

I'd do some googling to see if the ECU can be reprogrammed/flashed.   If so, you might be able to buy a tune online or get it dyno tuned which 'should' make it perfect.

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4 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

Just remembered; as for the question of whether to delete or not, just remember that you'll have to smell that exhaust at least occasionally.

 

It should smell only as bad as on a cold start, right?  Which I've never noticed at all.  I'm leaning to the cat delete.

 

I haven't found an ECU flash option for the later years.  It seems like the ECU got locked or whatever, as all the options I find end at 2018 or 19 (before the Adventure model, which has a different program than the RC/Duke 390).

 

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And all those piggy back controllers,,,,,almost everything now is throttle by wire, there is absolutely nothing they can do about things like throttle rate opening. There is very limited amount they can do on more and more sophisticated ECUs. It is almost like ECU fights back piggy back, and even fights back reprogramming. 

 

There was interesting article about this particular subject in Roadracing World couple months ago by Army of Darkness WERA racing team boss Sam Fleming. Endurance racing. 

Apparently their reflashed R1 ECU would still not fully opened throttles, are open them slower, even though reprogramming was supposed to take care of that. On dyno reflash R1 made same power as bike equipped with Yamaha race kit ECU/ wire harness, except on the track kitted bike had higher trap speeds by 3-4 mph. Lol.

You just wanna bang your head against the wall when dealing with those kind of issues. They run stock reflashed ECU becouse they could adjust better engine braking and traction control.

And starting with 2022 model ECU is not flashable.

 

I had Bazzaz fuel controller on VFR, I thought it run OK. And then I accidentally got flashed ECU by Guhl. Fuck Me, Way, way more responsive engine. Sadly, he stopped doing reflash courtesy of EPA hitting so many similar businesses with astronomical fines.

 

I feel lucky I had a chance to live in Golden Era of Motorcycles powered by ICE.

It is all castrated throttle by wire now. With idiot proof tunning they don't feel the same.

 

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I googled "2002 KTM390 tuning" not knowing for sure what year your bike is.  There's a bunch of more expensive but possibly better options you should look at.  Some appear to be replacement ECUs, but I didn't pay close attention to any of them.

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Unless you have a typo in what you just said, try again with 2020.  Either way there are indeed a bunch of much more expensive options, which have no better claims than the cheaper ones.  It's actually where I started.  Places like Coober Racing will sell you a $1k package that seems to be not really better than the Chinese exhaust and add-on programmers.  But that's why I posted here, for opinions otherwise.  If you see something you like for a 2020, post a link and let me know what you like about it.

 

Several things everyone seems to agree on:

 

Fueling is very good to start, but slightly lean.  Therefore, a programmer alone can slightly improve things.

 

Airbox breathes ok, opening it just makes noise (Coober disagrees and sells a kit, but makes no actual measured claims).

 

Resonator box is retarded EU noise bullshit, cat is the usual cat, with a slight restriction.

 

Removing the cat means you MUST get something to richen it, or you will either go into an error state or fry the motor.  But refer back to the above, that's step one anyway.

 

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Also, the ad for the Coober "ECU" is misleading, at least to me.  If you read the instructions it has you run a bunch of new connections, and nowhere does it tell you to remove the old ECU.  So therefore I classify it as the same sort of add-on product.  Am I wrong?

 

https://aomc.mx/AMP-390-17.html

 

https://aomc.mx/pdf/OpInst/KTM-DUKE390.pdf

 

Can you envision anything that makes the Coober worth $600?

 

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2 hours ago, SwampNut said:

Unless you have a typo in what you just said, try again with 2020

Typo, I did use 2020.

 

Coober was one that I saw and remembered the name of, I didn't pay close attention to any of them.

 

Most modern air boxes generally aren't measurably restrictive and the resonators have no impact on performance, just noise; this comes mostly from researching car stuff.  I think that with a single cylinder a resonator might possibly effect pressure pulses of the intake enough to change power a small amount, if it's tuned just right.  Kinda like an expansion chamber on a 2 stroke, but with much less effect.

 

I capped off the 'Helmoltz resonator' in the 911 and was surprised at how much difference it made, at full revs it's actually kinda loud now where it used to be strangely quiet for a performance engine that revs over 7k.

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The common estimation is that the resonator removal is mostly for the heat on the shock, 1 HP gain maybe, and sound.  I don't like loud, but I also don't like the Jetsons sound that it creates.  The cat seems to be most of the restriction, and also the muffler's end cap.  Some people just replace the end cap and have shown an increase (with a fuel programmer).

 

Do you think the Coober unit has anything going for it that the others don't?  IE, worth paying for?

 

The bike is really rideable, I like the power, and I'm chasing the dragon.  Why not.

 

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I've taken brief look at those fuel programmers. All piggy back. Some of them plug in into injector harness-good.

Some are only sensor offset type. Like it is gonna manipulate intake temperature reading, or pressure. Not good because I don't see any of them coming with O2 sensor eliminator. Bike does have one? Right?

So how is it gonna work well without one? 

 

 

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The mid-pipe, exhaust can, and gaskets arrived.  First, noticed that the gaskets were included with the pipes.  So that was a waste.  The people who had posts and videos about those parts had re-used gaskets, so that changed I guess.  I don't have the header pipe even ordered yet, but I had seen videos showing that the mid and muffler are pretty easy to do.  So I get on it.

 

A few hours later...I'm removing the entire skid plate mount (already removed the skid plate), and the front pipe.  It's that kind of project.  Apparently my model year was different from the ones in the videos, and the front pipe has a super long extension that goes into the resonator a few inches.  So even if you get it off the flange, it can't come out without removing or loosening the header pipe.  Ok.  Bolt it back together, and realize that I can't put the skid plate holder back on with the front pipe in place.  It has to be partially installed, loosely, then the skid mount, then tighten it all up.  Fucking great, so the header has to be loosened again, and hopefully there's enough jiggle in the mid pipe to let it move, or the whole fucking thing has to come off.

 

At least that should tell me whether the header pipe will be doable without re-removing the mid pipe and muffler.

 

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Good quality parts and great welds, for being Chinesium.

 

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Also, it removed 6 kilos of shit, and replaced it with 2.2 kilos.  And what a ridiculous amount of wasted space on a small bike just to meet retarded EU noise specs.  That held the big black resonator can.  

 

D11319EB-616B-4DC0-91C4-0324246FCF04_1_102_o.jpeg

 

 

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42 minutes ago, blackhawkxx said:

So does it sound better?

 

Remarkably better, very much so.  It went from sewing machine and Jetsons to a bassy rumble.  I measured the dB change at only 2dB at idle and at 4k, measured from the seat.  But that's misleading, because most of it is deep and low and that part of the spectrum probably went up 4, while possibly reducing high spectrum noise a lot.  I think it was a cheap upgrade for the looks, weight, and sound.  There are also cheaper versions of that muffler, which are supposedly identical clones.  Dunno, but I looked at a seller who had nearly all great reviews, and paid more for that.  Maybe that's why I got unexpected gaskets and extra fitment parts.

 

Also, I have not tested it with the spark arrestor out, which should be a bit louder.  But why.

 

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The decat pipe is on order, now to figure out a programmer.  I'm going to start a conversation with Rottweiler Performance about their PC 5 options, $400, and it's a known brand from a known KTM specialist.  They have good dyno-backed claims on their map, which is free if you buy the PC from them.  Any opinions on just going that old/proven route?

 

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Also, research is incredibly frustrating when seemingly more than half of the people talking about it, vendors and buyers, think that the resonator is the cat.  Idiots.  So "catalytic eliminator" may well be the mid-pipe that removes the resonator, or the header pipe that actually does remove the cat.  Basically you have to look at photos and hope they match (that's not always so either).  I'm still not certain what I'm getting, because that GFYCAT seller has two sets of pics on the same listing.  Ah well, I bought via Walmart which will handle it if they are a problem, and also they have good reviews both there and on Ali.

 

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1 hour ago, SwampNut said:

The decat pipe is on order, now to figure out a programmer.  I'm going to start a conversation with Rottweiler Performance about their PC 5 options, $400, and it's a known brand from a known KTM specialist.  They have good dyno-backed claims on their map, which is free if you buy the PC from them.  Any opinions on just going that old/proven route?

 

I would go with the PC-5 for all the reasons you mentioned.  You tell them what you have changed, and they load a base map that best matches.  Plug and play is worth the extra money, and I know you value that.

IMO, the programmer will give you the most bump in power where you want it.  Exhaust mods are usually most beneficial at high RPM only.  Sound and weight loss are really the only reasons for after market exhaust.  The performance of stock systems is pretty good these days.  The fueling is where they neuter the engine.

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Well, turns out Rottweiler doesn't have a map, it was misleading on their site.  They only have the other KTMs, not mine.  So back to searching for an option, maybe the PC-5, from another vendor.

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19 hours ago, SwampNut said:

Well, turns out Rottweiler doesn't have a map, it was misleading on their site.  They only have the other KTMs, not mine.  So back to searching for an option, maybe the PC-5, from another vendor.

Worth the research, in my opinion.

 

BTW, I don't know if your tire is cupped, but your swing-arm appears to be inside out.🤔

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