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Wierd Problem with Nissan Frontier (Help!)


jon haney

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I pride myself on being able to fix most anything mechanical, so this post is me being desperate (to not have to take it to a shop).

 

My son's 2007 Nissan Frontier V6, 150K miles, has an (somewhat intermittent) issue with cold weather.  If it's below 40 degrees (only seems to be in the morning when stone cold), it will crank, but doesn't want to start/fire.  Not even a little bit.  It's like all the spark plugs/coils are disconnected, or all of the injectors are disconnected.  I have smelled the exhaust pipe after cranking for 10-15 seconds, and get no raw fuel smell, so I'm thinking it's something in the fuel system that won't let the injectors fire.  Check engine light is not on, and there are no codes.  It had this problem last winter, too, but son wasn't driving to school until late Feb.  Didn't happen enough times to want to dig into it.

Furbird, is this anything you ever heard about from your Nissan dealer days?

Edited by jon haney
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Can you hear the fuel pump run at key on before cranking? 

 

Fuel pressure data is such an important diagnostic value, I think it's sad that there isn't a sensor for it on many cars (on the few I've worked on, when there is one, it's usually just a Pressure/no pressure, not a value or constant data stream).

 

"...there are no codes"  - It's important to know what scan tool you're using to determine this, some of the budget or older ones don't read every parameter.

 

As always, is the battery healthy?

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Next cold morning, listen for the fuel pump prime before cranking.  It's possible that the pump or the relay are allergic to cold weather, but it seems unlikely that either would have a problem and still work for another year.  Regardless, it's the first thing to verify in a no-fuel situation.

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19 minutes ago, IcePrick said:

As always, is the battery healthy?

 

The cause of so many mystery problems.  An easy test is to leave it on a charger/tender and see if that changes the problem.

 

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If it starts with charger that might tell you that the battery is weak, or that you have a faulty ECM.  I know it sounds crazy, but there's been cases of Nissan ECMs that won't work in the cold, but the truck starts with a boost making it seem like a battery problem.  Apparently the extra voltage helps jump the bad connection or whatever that causes the cold no-start.

 

You might have to set aside some cold weather diagnostic time to find the problem, possibly two or more days of it.  Next time it won't start, warm the ECM with a hair drier or heat gun, it can take several minutes for the heat to soak in and do its thing.  The cam position sensor can also cause this so that's another thing to try heating.  Enough cranking can heat up and 'fix' whatever's causing the problem so once you think you've found the culprit you'll have to repeat the test another day heating only the suspect part to verify it is the one.

 

If it has an aftermarket alarm, especially one that's been abandoned, that's another possibility.  Most use an external relay to open the desired circuit to keep the vehicle from starting and the contacts eventually go bad.  After having had that wild goose chase once it's now on my go-to checklist and I've found a few.

 

 

No good info, just a funny about diagnosing an alarm caused no-start: '92 F-150 having intermittent morning no-starts, on those days he takes his chick's car to work.  According to the owner "the alarm system was completely removed so that can't be it"  Every time I go there it starts for me.  Other than the first morning start it's 100% reliable.  One day I asked him why he always parks across the street from his house.  "I don't, usually I park right in front of the house."  But every time I go it's across the street....we have a pattern!  When he parks on the south side of the street it's fine, the north side of he street is nearly a guaranteed no start.  What I think was happening is that the morning sun through the back window was heating the dash, the changing temperature was causing the alarm's relay contacts to move a little bit breaking the connection.  By the time I'd get there it had heated enough to re-make connection.  If I read what I just typed I'd call bullshit, but I took out the relay and re-connected the interrupted wires over 20 years ago and the truck has never again had the problem, it recently became my truck.

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Oscar, I think the only person that would hate cold-weather diagnostics more than me is Carlos, but I'm sure that is what it will take to find the problem.  No alarm on the truck, except for factory.  I need to try the other key to see if it's the "chip".  I'm 99.99% sure it isn't the battery.  Same one as last winter, 2 years old, cranks strong for as long as you dare abuse the starter and cables, but I might try a jump, as it's easy and free.

I did a little research this morning after posting, and at least got some ideas where to start.  One person mentioned a faulty fuel pump wiring harness.  Another mentioned corroded fuel pump relay.  Back in March, I  listened for the fuel pump "whir", and remember hearing it, but will reaffirm that next time.

 

Mike, I'm with you on having a fuel pressure sensor.  Should be standard.  Scan tool could be 20 years old.  It was my dad's, and certainly made before the truck.  No idea on the brand.

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12 minutes ago, jon haney said:

Oscar, I think the only person that would hate cold-weather diagnostics more than me is Carlos

 

Oh no, it's definitely Oscar, he's in a parka and lighting a fire when it crosses below 70.  

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, SwampNut said:

 

Oh no, it's definitely Oscar, he's in a parka and lighting a fire when it crosses below 70.  

 

 

 

LOL.  Surprised he's not more vocal about it.

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18 minutes ago, jon haney said:

LOL.  Surprised he's not more vocal about it.

Oh I am, you just haven't seen it.  Two nights ago I suddenly felt chilly.  Look at the thermometer and sure as shit, it was down to 75.5 in here.  I immediately lit a fire.

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2 minutes ago, superhawk996 said:

 

Oh I am, you just haven't seen it.  Two nights ago I suddenly felt chilly.  Look at the thermometer and sure as shit, it was down to 75.5 in here.  I immediately lit a fire.

 

So that's why you never take that sweater off.

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1 hour ago, jon haney said:

I need to try the other key to see if it's the "chip"

Most, if not all, cars will display a light or message when that happens, but it's often not obvious enough to grab one's attention away from "fuck, my car's dead."

 

Cold weather "shouldn't" fuck with the anti-theft system...and the first time mine acted up on the Excursion was in Prescott in the winter.  Ever since then it's been intermittently finicky.

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As it cranks but won't start, if it's not the battery, I'd question the fuel system.

 

My B3000 had an issue in Wyoming where if I tried to start it X minutes after shutting it down in cold weather, it wouldn't start because it needed a mix for cold air but the ECU was thinking the engine was still warm enough.  Maybe a similar issue where a sensor isn't telling the ECU it's cold?

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27 minutes ago, superhawk996 said:

 

Oh I am, you just haven't seen it.  Two nights ago I suddenly felt chilly.  Look at the thermometer and sure as shit, it was down to 75.5 in here.  I immediately lit a fire.

 

In case anyone doesn't believe this to be true, he also bitched about it to me and a friend over text.

 

image.png

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4 hours ago, jon haney said:

Another mentioned corroded fuel pump relay.  

Are there duplicated relays? My old F-250 had mutiple of the same relay part number.

 

Maybe you could maybe swap them around?

 

How much does a new relay cost? 2007 is only 15 (16) years old...

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9 hours ago, jon haney said:

I pride myself on being able to fix most anything mechanical, so this post is me being desperate (to not have to take it to a shop).

 

My son's 2007 Nissan Frontier V6, 150K miles, has an (somewhat intermittent) issue with cold weather.  If it's below 40 degrees (only seems to be in the morning when stone cold), it will crank, but doesn't want to start/fire.  Not even a little bit.  It's like all the spark plugs/coils are disconnected, or all of the injectors are disconnected.  I have smelled the exhaust pipe after cranking for 10-15 seconds, and get no raw fuel smell, so I'm thinking it's something in the fuel system that won't let the injectors fire.  Check engine light is not on, and there are no codes.  It had this problem last winter, too, but son wasn't driving to school until late Feb.  Didn't happen enough times to want to dig into it.

Furbird, is this anything you ever heard about from your Nissan dealer days?


No clue because of the parameters.  Sent it to my friend who is still a master tech there.  I was going to jump on the fuel pump bandwagon but that wouldn't be cold-related since it's all submerged on an 07.  That's also an IPDM-controlled vehicle so I don't believe it has a separate relay.  I'm thinking it's voltage; either battery (as in corrosion or crap connection since Nissan battery connectors are notorious for breaking being that old) or possibly a sign of impending coil failure (cold open).  Reason I'm saying that is because another friend has an Armada that just started dropping coils around the same mileage (but reversed, hot open).  Problem with the coil theory is the lack of SES light.  You really need to get this thing on a scan tool to see what's going on and preferably one with live readout.  The extended crank time screams fuel pump but the cold weather restriction is what throws the wrench in this.

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Tech just got back with me and confirmed to verify battery terminal end condition and do NOT use lead-type battery ends; go get a replacement from the dealer (I think they were maybe 10 bucks when I was there and we kept them in stock; give them the VIN and the prefix is 24340 for the part code.)  The negative battery end is non-replaceable, you have to replace the entire cable per the parts department most likely; however in this case we were using the Ford-type end and just replacing the end when I was there.  It's a wrap-around end for lack of a better term.

There could possibly be an open recall for an ECM relay, so call the dealer and give them the VIN and see what all is still open on the truck.  If not, then you need to see if your IPDM (Intelligent Power Distribution Module) is white in color.  If so, you need to get a part number 284B7-CW29E which is the recall relay and replace it.  This may solve your issue entirely as that is what fails.  Google "ECM relay Frontier" and you should find the guide to where the IPDM is and where the relay is.

If neither of these fix your issue, it's time to whip out bank and suck it up, buttercup.  You're most likely looking at ECM failure according to the master tech.  But he also said it's impossible to diagnose without more info.  He sent me a video he took of a Titan with the exact same issue you are having and it had lead ends and Nissan battery ends fixed it.

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3 hours ago, XXitanium said:

Are there duplicated relays? My old F-250 had mutiple of the same relay part number.

 

Maybe you could maybe swap them around?

 

How much does a new relay cost? 2007 is only 15 (16) years old...

I think the relay is part of an integrated circuit type thing, I don't know what Nissan calls it, but many manufacturers have chosen to fuck us like that decided to go this route.

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On 10/18/2022 at 6:17 PM, XXitanium said:

Are there duplicated relays? My old F-250 had mutiple of the same relay part number.

 

Maybe you could maybe swap them around?

 

How much does a new relay cost? 2007 is only 15 (16) years old...

Definitely, checking that this weekend.

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22 hours ago, Furbird said:

Not fuel pump relay, ECM relay.  Call the dealer, see if it has an open recall, it may be free!

Will do.

Yes, the battery cable ends have been replaced with the lead style (like from the 70's).  Not sure if did it, as this truck was my father-in-law's that he purchased new.  Also, I charged the battery last night with a very old, heavy, but functional charger, and then put my tester on it.  It read 12.75 volts (engine off).  Then hit it with the 50 amp test load and it indicated "weak", so going to start with a new battery, and then some of the other stuff mentioned.

 

I'm curious to know how lead terminals can be a problem, if you keep them cleaned?

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